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JVC GR-HD1U / JY-HD10U
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Old October 9th, 2003, 12:07 AM   #1
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JY-HD10 quality opinions?

I'm looking after buying the HD10 - I have many doubts, of course, mainly because I am not able to go to a store and try out the camera. I just have to buy it blindly, import it for me and pay taxes, etc, so it's a bit more than a simple $3000 investment for me.

I am new to this forum, and somewhat confused by diverse opinions, like, the output is not real HD, it only has 1 ccd, and so. I have read many of the Steve Mullen articles, which I found very interesting, but I wanted some 'pop' opinions from users.

Perhaps I'm wrong about these, but I'd choose the HD10 over, say, a XL1S or PD150, for the following reasons that would be interesting for my current kind of job:



About image quality:

-It has only 1 ccd, but definition seems incontestable. Here are two frames from the JY-HD10 i found from a review:

http://www2.ddn.com.br/emi/jvc_hd_2.jpg
http://www2.ddn.com.br/emi/jvc_hd_3.jpg

-Other well known cameras, such as the XL1, have better lenses, 3-ccd and better operation. The XL1 has undoubtely one of better images from its category. But I have no way to compare DV resolution with the so called HDV from the HD10.

These are samples from the XL1 I shot myself, for TV ads,
http://www2.ddn.com.br/emi/XL1_1.jpg
http://www2.ddn.com.br/emi/XL1_2.jpg

This is not so simple, I know... but can the HD10 have limitations SO BAD that they overcome advantage of getting an image that is almost four times the DV screensize in pixels?




About editing:

-I am aware of the difficulties to edit the HD1 MPEG2 video. That is, if compared of the so easy to setup normal DV editing. But I am using currently vegas 4 and After Effects. Most of my works, indeed, are 30-sec commercials entirely edited and processed in After Effects.

I think there are some ways to convert this video to some kind of format I can use as footage in After Effects, in worst case a JPG sequence.
If this is the case, I have great improvements in the footage: it is progressive, it is big, I can zoom (crop) almost twice into an image, i can rotate it, shake it, and i'll still be over DV resolution.

I can use the 60 progressive frames from SD and slow down to 24 or even to 15-fps, that is, getting a barely smooth SLOW shot of 4x the time, at 720x480. This is also an interesting feature I could use. Could I?


About converting to Cinema:

Besides the limitation of adapting 30p to 24p, I checked with the bureau I use to transfer video to 35mm film, and they confirmed they can convert using the 1280x720 format using a couple of ways. A rudimentary JPEG sequence was the first solution I came with, in which case i could put some 120 seconds in a CD and some 10 minutes into a DVD-R. Are there other common solutions?


I am almost signing the check. Or am I mislead?

Emilio
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Old October 9th, 2003, 05:27 AM   #2
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Disclaimer: I don't own the HD10 or any H(D)DV camera and have
never seen/worked with the footage directly. I own an XL1S.

First, it looks like your XL1 footage is a bit too hot. When shooting
with the camera it is usually best (in my opinion) to under expose
SLIGHTLY. This gives a much better picture contrast wise in my
opinion.

Second keep in mind that tools for working with HDV (which is
MPEG2) are in their first generation. A lof of connections to other
applications seem to be missing or can only be done by buying
some other (shareware) tools etc. Someone correct me on this
if I'm wrong.
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Old October 9th, 2003, 11:56 AM   #3
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"but can the HD10 have limitations SO BAD that they overcome advantage of getting an image that is almost four times the DV screensize in pixels?"

Yes, it certainly can -- but it all depends on what your final goals are. The HD10's resolution is undoubtedly a huge advantage for it (and it's not 4x, it's about 2.7 times as many pixels as DV).

If you intend to use the camera in a professional environment (meaning, on a paid gig) I would strongly, thoroughly recommend you wait for the next iteration of an HDV camera - either a JVC follow-up, or a Sony or Canon version. If you're used to the controllability and feature set on the XL1, I suspect you will be very frustrated by the limitations of the HD10. I further suspect you would be furious if you sunk the money into an HD10, were held up by its limitations, and then six months later Canon introduced an XL2 which was HDV and used all your existing XL1 accessories, etc. (which of course may not happen, but you never know).
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Old October 9th, 2003, 07:37 PM   #4
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vs.

Thank you both, that's the kind of answers I appreciate.

Barry: have you had bad experiences with the HD10?


Among the facts I am considering before buying, i can see I could buy the HD10 for $3000, which I consider my investment limit at this moment. The PD150 is at $3400 and the XL1s has a cheap tag (IMO) of $3600, so I wont consider a PD150 by now. Even so, the 600 extra bucks of the XL1S would be a bit pressing for me right now...

I do not own a XL1, but I rent one when I need. I own a trv17, wich is very sluggish and limited, and even when its image quality is good enough for some jobs, it's very embarrassing to present myself armed with one of these.

One day I had to bring an old M9000 SVHS camera to a job to 'fill up' the client's eyes, but the real product was edited from the DV footage I took with the TRV17 which I brought 'to take make-off shots'

So, my thinking at this moment is that I could buy the HD10 to have some 'bonus' capabilities. Perhaps I could take some advantage from having higher definition in a PD-150 camera that I can take with me, and continue renting a XL1 or other camera when the job deserves it...

But of course, if general opinions are against the HD10, i would think much more before buying.

Emilio
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Old October 9th, 2003, 08:43 PM   #5
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I have evaluated the HD1 and found it unacceptable to me to use for paying gigs, at its current level of development. The fact you can't disable AGC in the audio, the fact you can't manually set shutter speed and aperture at the same time, the fact that it has no true manual zoom and a servo-type manual focus, the viewfinder is exceptionally low resolution when compared to the resolution of the picture, the audio is fed to the camera with a 1/8" minijack (even on the HD10), the audio tracks are apparently recorded out of phase with each other, resulting in a "canned" slap-echo situation... it has no provision for controlling the image (such as edge enhancement, black stretch, etc), no built-in ND filters, so adjusting light control means stopping what you're doing, screwing in a piece of glass, and then starting up again... plus I just don't trust it. I've seen it deliver fantastic footage and I've seen it deliver atrocious footage. And with no way to monitor HD as you record it, how can you trust what you're shooting? If all you shoot is studio stuff, under controlled conditions, you can make it work for you and get very nice results -- but exteriors, or under non-controlled conditions, the risks are too great.

The camera is not meant for professional shooters, it wasn't designed for professionals, and it originally wasn't marketed towards professionals (the HD10 was announced after overwhelming interest by pros in the HD1).

If the HD1/HD10 was the ONLY high-def consumer camera that was EVER going to be announced, well, yeah, go out and buy it and don't look back. But considering that there has been a formal HDV coalition announced, and that by this time next year there will probably be at least three more models available (one each from Sony, Canon, and Sharp, and maybe even a revamped JVC offering), and with the prospect that the Sony and/or Canon models (or potential new JVC models) will have actual professional controls that address the HD1/HD10's shortcomings, I just can't see why someone who shoots for a living would settle for all the compromises inherent in the HD1 design -- unless their situation simply does not allow them to wait for new camera announcements, of course.

The prospect of a PD150 with HDV resolution is so overwhelmingly positive, that it really calls into question why one would settle for the HD1. Buy hey, your mileage may vary. If you're the type who absolutely has to be the first on the block with an HD camera, the HD1/HD10 is here now. But do your due diligence, spend some time with it and see if you can live with the limitations -- and if you decide you might be able to, then also consider how you'll feel if you sink $3000 or so into it, and then a potential HDV Canon XL2 gets announced in April. If that would give you buyer's remorse, try to wait. But if that wouldn't matter to you, and the HD1/HD10 does everything you need, then by all means, go for it! It is capable of some amazing footage.

As per your numbers, the HD10 is around $3000, the PD150 can be had for $3100 (but is due to be replaced by the PD170) and the XL1s is very long in the tooth. Also consider the Panasonic DVC80 (which is a direct competitor to the PD150 at only about $2400) or the DVX100 (at around $3100). However, those are all standard-def. If you can afford to wait six months to a year, you may be richly rewarded by a pro-caliber HDV camera. (of course, we may all be roundly disappointed too! There's no way to know what the manufacturers have in store for us.)
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Old October 9th, 2003, 11:35 PM   #6
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waiting

<<then also consider how you'll feel if you sink $3000 or so into it, and then a potential HDV Canon XL2 gets announced in April.>>

You are right in your argument. Even more, imagine if I sink almost $4000 in a XL1s and canon DOES ANNOUNCE the hypothetical XL1 HDV.


Well, as I need a first camera of my own, I am considering other possibilities. I gave a look to the DVC80 and the DVX100.

I am thinking even on reducing my budget this time, just to hold up with my work until i have a better camera. That would mean investing in a big plastic DVC7 or something in the range.

Well, i'll think about this later, when I manage to get some sleep. Thank you, Barry.
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Old October 10th, 2003, 08:55 AM   #7
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I think Barry is completely right about everything he says about the JVC. But....if I were planning to make a feature film at a low budget. I would still chose to use the JVCHD1OU over a $25,000 Sony SDX900 or my $16000 IKegami HLDV7W, purely because of the resolution. It is the only game in town that delivers HD at an affordable price right now, Canon MAY come out with an HD camcorder next year, or they MAY NOT, it's a guessing game. If you need HD resolution right now, use the HD1OU if you can't aford film or a Varicam. If you don't need HD right now, keep waiting, yes there'll probably be something better down the road, there always is, maybe a year from now at the earliest.

All the best
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Old October 10th, 2003, 09:32 AM   #8
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I agree Paul that new HDV cameras seem a way off, so if you can use HD now, the JY-HD10 in the way to go (I find shooting conditions not that limting, with the results generally excellent.) The JVC cameras were first annouced around September last year, then they where released about 9 months later. I would expect a similar pattern from competitive releases. We haven't seen any new annoucements yet -- although we at CineForm are hoping for more cameras to support. Look to CES as the place for the next HDV annoucement as HDV is considered a consumer format (like DV); annoucements at CES will probably hit the shelves in Sept 2004.
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Old October 10th, 2003, 09:58 AM   #9
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The HD10 is still in my list. I just can't stop thinking $3000 is a big deal for HD, even if I recompress the video to 'progressive' DV footage later. And HDV footage is surprisingly lighter than DV. More CPU demanding of course.

I am somewhat excited as a child with the ideia of playing with high definition footage... that's why i am afraid of making an impulsive bought.

I'd like the HD10 to have more direct controls of iris, shutter, focus, etc. But I think i can live manipulating the HD controls.

I've heard the DV image quality from the HD10 is 'so so'. How would it compare with other cameras, say, a PDX10?
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Old October 10th, 2003, 10:16 AM   #10
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ONe other thing i'd like to ask to owners...
What does the camera include?

does it came with 2 handles? the microphone shown in most pictures is included too?
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Old October 10th, 2003, 10:16 AM   #11
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<<<-- Originally posted by Emilio Le Roux :

I've heard the DV image quality from the HD10 is 'so so'. How would it compare with other cameras, say, a PDX10? -->>>

Really if you can help it, it is much better to shoot and edit in 720p then scale to NTSC if needed (picture quality is excellent.) The only reason to shoot in DV mode is if you need 60i.
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Old October 10th, 2003, 10:26 AM   #12
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It comes with two handles, yes (one with and one without the XLR audio input.) It doesn't come with the shotgun mic.
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Old October 10th, 2003, 11:32 AM   #13
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Hi Emilio,

I think Barry and Paul gave you good advices, I think you should download footage (not photos) to get a better idea of what can be done, Paul has some footage posted and I too on the DVI forum from the HD10 and there are links to some HD1 footage too, here are the threads for Paul's footage and mine:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11460
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14422
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Old October 10th, 2003, 11:38 AM   #14
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hey! that's great!

I was wondering about how to get some footage.. but was afraid to ask. Didin't know you made some available already.
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Old October 10th, 2003, 11:50 AM   #15
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There is nothing like moving images right? :)
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