Discovery buries H10U at DVinfo.net

Lynne Whelden · October 16th, 2003, 11:13 AM

The latest issue of TV Technology has an article on Discovery channel's new standards for HD programming. They are accepting shows produced in D-5, HDCAM, HDCAM SR, DVCPRO HD. However...."one HD format that was unacceptable for HD production for Discovery was the new semipro 19Mbps system used by the JVC JY-HD10U. Derby explained that this format created too much noise and has too many artifacts when upconverted to the final 1080i master and subsequently broadcast."

Paul Mogg · October 16th, 2003, 11:27 AM

I think they should take a look at some of the artifacts in their current HD shows they are broadcasting. Some of the Moire effects I see during panning in footage shot on the Varicam and CineAlta are worse than I've ever seen on the HD1OU.

Alex Raskin · October 16th, 2003, 04:18 PM

I did not notice any luma noise with HD10.

Chroma noise, indeed, is horrific.

On the bright side: use this camera's B&W Effect, and shoot black and white footage.

No noise (no color!), high resolution, looks fantastic.

Try it!

Many movies are in B&W, including recent indie success Pi.

Heath McKnight · October 16th, 2003, 04:48 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Alex Raskin : Many movies are in B&W, including recent indie success Pi. -->>>

Recent? If five years ago is recent... ;-)

Hey, one of my films is half B&W/half color, the other is totally B&W. Orson Welles once said B&W can save a performance (or in my case, a film...HA HA, just kidding!).

heath

Lynne Whelden · October 16th, 2003, 04:49 PM

Well, apparently Discovery is trying to get their act together following a rocky introduction to the world of HD. The article starts out by saying "In an effort to promote more and better high-definition content, Discovery Channel is holding seminars..." It goes on to say that no show can contain more than 25% of SD footage and only a minutes' duration for any given segment. So I guess they're just trying to raise the bar and eliminate the artifacts that people have been seeing up til now.

Eric Bilodeau · October 18th, 2003, 10:39 PM

That reminds me of the broadcaster's response to the introduction of miniDV... Some people where able to fool them anyway so I would not bother...

Steve Mullen · October 19th, 2003, 05:15 AM

Reading the story it seems they are concerned about the transcoding to 1080i.

One wonders how they did it?

What would happen if the scaleing to 1080i were done in software using uncompressed video.

Troy Lamont · October 19th, 2003, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Chroma noise, indeed, is horrific.

Alex,

Can you expound on that a little more specifically? What criteria are you using other just visual verification? What type of equipment is used in testing or otherwise?

Thanks, more of a justification on my part than anything.

Troy

Alex Raskin · October 20th, 2003, 09:48 AM

Troy, here is goes:

http://fancyflix.com/hd10.htm

Paul Mogg · October 20th, 2003, 11:41 AM

First of all you need to determine, is the chroma noise I see ALL in my orignal footage or is it being enhanced by my playback equipment?
While there is most definately significant chroma noise in the original footage shot on the HD10U, I have found that the software and hardware you play back through may enhance that chroma noise a great deal and give a very distorted impression of just how much chroma noise there actually is.
Worst are the software playback players like Elecard and VLAN. Next is NOT playing back on an HDTV (not a computer monitor) that is capable of 720p native format. There are very few HDTV's that are actually capable of this, most do upconverts to 1o80i or downconverts to 480i, on the fly, so I would say that MOST people are probably getting quite a distorted impression of how much chroma noise is actually there.
Though I am by no means reccomending a Monivision monitor to anyone, the amount of chroma noise I see in flat areas of color (where it is most obvious) is far less when viewed directly from the camera, or after transfer to D_VHS, on this 720p capable monitor.

I hope this helps.

Yang Wen · October 20th, 2003, 07:55 PM

This looks like the same kind of noise I get on my Digital 8 cam under low light conditions.

some examples here from bealecorner:

http://www.bealecorner.com/trv900/d8/index.html
http://www.bealecorner.com/trv900/d8/trv110b.jpg

Ken Hodson · October 20th, 2003, 11:59 PM

It looks like gain-up on SD cams. How about more fill light and a stronger ND filter?
Ken

October 16th, 2003, 11:13 AM	#1
Lynne Whelden Major Player Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: williamsport, pa Posts: 604	Discovery buries H10U The latest issue of TV Technology has an article on Discovery channel's new standards for HD programming. They are accepting shows produced in D-5, HDCAM, HDCAM SR, DVCPRO HD. However...."one HD format that was unacceptable for HD production for Discovery was the new semipro 19Mbps system used by the JVC JY-HD10U. Derby explained that this format created too much noise and has too many artifacts when upconverted to the final 1080i master and subsequently broadcast."

October 16th, 2003, 11:27 AM	#2
Paul Mogg Major Player Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: San Francisco CA Posts: 386	I think they should take a look at some of the artifacts in their current HD shows they are broadcasting. Some of the Moire effects I see during panning in footage shot on the Varicam and CineAlta are worse than I've ever seen on the HD1OU. __________________ Paul

October 16th, 2003, 04:48 PM	#4
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	<<<-- Originally posted by Alex Raskin : Many movies are in B&W, including recent indie success Pi. -->>> Recent? If five years ago is recent... ;-) Hey, one of my films is half B&W/half color, the other is totally B&W. Orson Welles once said B&W can save a performance (or in my case, a film...HA HA, just kidding!). heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

October 18th, 2003, 10:39 PM	#6
Eric Bilodeau Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Chicoutimi, Canada Posts: 334	That reminds me of the broadcaster's response to the introduction of miniDV... Some people where able to fool them anyway so I would not bother... __________________ Eric Bilodeau video SFX,DOP ___________________ http://www.fictis.net info@fictis.net

October 19th, 2003, 05:15 AM	#7
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	Reading the story it seems they are concerned about the transcoding to 1080i. One wonders how they did it? What would happen if the scaleing to 1080i were done in software using uncompressed video. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

October 16th, 2003, 04:18 PM	#3
Alex Raskin Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,435	I did not notice any luma noise with HD10. Chroma noise, indeed, is horrific. On the bright side: use this camera's B&W Effect, and shoot black and white footage. No noise (no color!), high resolution, looks fantastic. Try it! Many movies are in B&W, including recent indie success Pi.

October 16th, 2003, 04:49 PM	#5
Lynne Whelden Major Player Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: williamsport, pa Posts: 604	Well, apparently Discovery is trying to get their act together following a rocky introduction to the world of HD. The article starts out by saying "In an effort to promote more and better high-definition content, Discovery Channel is holding seminars..." It goes on to say that no show can contain more than 25% of SD footage and only a minutes' duration for any given segment. So I guess they're just trying to raise the bar and eliminate the artifacts that people have been seeing up til now.

October 20th, 2003, 09:48 AM	#9
Alex Raskin Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,435	Troy, here is goes: http://fancyflix.com/hd10.htm

October 20th, 2003, 11:41 AM	#10
Paul Mogg Major Player Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: San Francisco CA Posts: 386	First of all you need to determine, is the chroma noise I see ALL in my orignal footage or is it being enhanced by my playback equipment? While there is most definately significant chroma noise in the original footage shot on the HD10U, I have found that the software and hardware you play back through may enhance that chroma noise a great deal and give a very distorted impression of just how much chroma noise there actually is. Worst are the software playback players like Elecard and VLAN. Next is NOT playing back on an HDTV (not a computer monitor) that is capable of 720p native format. There are very few HDTV's that are actually capable of this, most do upconverts to 1o80i or downconverts to 480i, on the fly, so I would say that MOST people are probably getting quite a distorted impression of how much chroma noise is actually there. Though I am by no means reccomending a Monivision monitor to anyone, the amount of chroma noise I see in flat areas of color (where it is most obvious) is far less when viewed directly from the camera, or after transfer to D_VHS, on this 720p capable monitor. I hope this helps. __________________ Paul

October 20th, 2003, 07:55 PM	#11
Yang Wen Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 991	This looks like the same kind of noise I get on my Digital 8 cam under low light conditions. some examples here from bealecorner: http://www.bealecorner.com/trv900/d8/index.html http://www.bealecorner.com/trv900/d8/trv110b.jpg

October 20th, 2003, 11:59 PM	#12
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	It looks like gain-up on SD cams. How about more fill light and a stronger ND filter? Ken __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.