CHROMA NOISE in HD10s - Page 2 at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > And Now, For Something Completely Different... > The Archives > JVC GR-HD1U / JY-HD10U

JVC GR-HD1U / JY-HD10U
All about the original single-CCD HDV camcorders from JVC.


 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old October 21st, 2003, 02:29 PM   #16
HDV Cinema
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 4,007
Paul, I'm really sorry to hear about your monitor.

The X1 from InFous -- i think.

But for $1300 you can get the Sanyo Z1 which I have and recommend highly.

The X1 uses a spinning color filter which cause some/most folks to see rainbows on moving objects.

Head to Video Systems where I review the Z1.


The color shifts are Color PHASE errors (PM) while brightness changes are Color AMPLITUDE AM) errors.

But, while I see PM, I also see AM on saturated red and blue areas.

AM is far more annoying.
__________________
Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c
Steve Mullen is offline  
Old October 21st, 2003, 04:17 PM   #17
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Chicoutimi, Canada
Posts: 334
I agree with Steve that Amplitude modulation errors are more noticeable. I did see a lot of yellowish skintone shifts on HD monitors and it looked just fine to me, it is not all that bad
__________________
Eric Bilodeau
video SFX,DOP
___________________
http://www.fictis.net
info@fictis.net
Eric Bilodeau is offline  
Old October 22nd, 2003, 09:39 AM   #18
Trustee
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,435
Does anybody else have HD10's footage snapshots?

If yes, please post the web links so we can see how chroma noise propagates itself in YOUR camera.

Mine are at:

http://fancyflix.com/hd10.htm
Alex Raskin is offline  
Old October 22nd, 2003, 07:13 PM   #19
Major Player
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 351
You know, I've looked at the footage off this camera on about 15 different monitors. Everything from LCD to progessional $20K HD monitors from Sony.

the level of quality of the monitor is a big difference and in my opinion, a CRT monitor is superior to an LCD.

If you're buying a new monitor for this camera, consider tube instead of LCD. The chroma noise is reduced, so in my opinion it's the monitor and not the camera in many cases (thought not all - traffic lights are trouble)

Cheers
__________________
Darren Kelly
Darren Kelly is offline  
Old October 22nd, 2003, 08:15 PM   #20
Trustee
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Vancouver BC Canada
Posts: 1,315
I think if the footage is imported into the computer then a snapshot is taken and chroma noise is evident, iit s proof that it has come from the camera. Does this make sense? I mean the monitor is out of the question because it is not subjective viewing, but a frame from raw captured footage.

The questions that remain are:
Is the croma noise dependant on lighting levels?
Do the combinations of ample lighting and filters eliminate chroma noise ?
Is Alex's camera pooched?

Ken
__________________
Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.
Ken Hodson is offline  
Old October 23rd, 2003, 12:30 AM   #21
New Boot
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 12
These speculations on the origins of the high chroma noise fail to mention the extremely high noise-to-signal ratio that naturally results from dividing a single 1/3-inch chip into so many tiny sensors. It's the laws of physics, people.

A redesign could ameliorate this by using a much bigger chip or perhaps adding extremely sophisticated error-correction techniques in the chip.

But that would require HDV licensees to reconsider whether they want to continue treating this technology like Video **HOME** System for the 21st century.

(I hope they do just that.)

Hasn't it occured to you how much HD10 chroma noise looks like VHS noise?
Mitch Gould is offline  
Old October 23rd, 2003, 01:29 AM   #22
Trustee
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Vancouver BC Canada
Posts: 1,315
We all know the camera could be better in many respects but that is not the issue.
We have to work around these limitations, or the problem we are having now, defining them.
I strongly believe that the chroma noise is proportional to light levels. If you look at Alex's pictures you can see the first two pictures have the most chroma noise, but they also are lacking in lighting. The out-door shot has higher levels of light but it is very direct giving us over exposed and under exposed areas. The shadow areas have the chroma noise.
It is my feeling that in studio conditions with pro lighting, chroma noise would be minimal. This cam seems like it can really benefit from a general high lumen environment. Almost treat it like a film camera. Shoot extreemly well lit, then drop the levels in post.
Ken
__________________
Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.
Ken Hodson is offline  
Old October 23rd, 2003, 05:51 AM   #23
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Chicoutimi, Canada
Posts: 334
Ken is absolutely right, as I said earlier in this thread, with enough lighting it becomes less aparent, even totally absent.
__________________
Eric Bilodeau
video SFX,DOP
___________________
http://www.fictis.net
info@fictis.net
Eric Bilodeau is offline  
Old October 23rd, 2003, 07:54 AM   #24
Trustee
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,435
<<<-- Originally posted by Ken Hodson : ...the monitor is out of the question because it is not subjective viewing, but a frame from raw captured footage.>>>


Obviously.



<<<Is the croma noise dependant on lighting levels? >>>


All 3 videos were made at different light levels from radically different light sources, yet chroma noise is present very visibly in each snapshot.
Alex Raskin is offline  
Old October 23rd, 2003, 03:18 PM   #25
Trustee
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Vancouver BC Canada
Posts: 1,315
Were the chroma noise levels the same through all 3 shots?
The chroma looks to be less on the final shot, and is the only shot approaching adequate lighting.
Ken
__________________
Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.
Ken Hodson is offline  
Old October 23rd, 2003, 03:25 PM   #26
Wrangler
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Point Pleasant, NJ
Posts: 437
As far as I can tell the chroma noise gets more apparent in badly lit situations. I will post some snap shots as soon as I receive my copy of Panther to show how good and how bad the image can be. In a perfect lighting condition this camera takes AMAZING footage. So the morale of the story is, invest in a good gaffer before shooting with this camera.
Frederic Lumiere is offline  
Old October 23rd, 2003, 03:37 PM   #27
Trustee
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Vancouver BC Canada
Posts: 1,315
Sounds good Frederic. That will help us get to the bottom of this.
Ken
__________________
Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.
Ken Hodson is offline  
Old October 24th, 2003, 06:14 PM   #28
Wrangler
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Point Pleasant, NJ
Posts: 437
Stills from HD10U footage

Here are some stills from footage I shot over the last couple of days. This is all in natural light. Anything shot in manual mode by tweeking the settings comes out beautiful, especially when it's well lit (i.e. butterfly shots). I notice plenty of chroma noise when i shot in shadows, or down on the sand while it was heavily overcast. You will notice my little notes under each shot. Compare the benches. One was shot in manual and the other in automatic mode. Automatic mode is no good. I know that the colors aren't ideal but it's nothing color correction can't enhance. (I'm a color correction freak).

My favorite however is B&W, looks like super 16mm. Take a look and let me know what you think. Oh, one last thing...I just got my copy of Panther today and i still haven't figured out how to convert m2t to something I can open in quicktime so these are frame grabs from OS X and they are not at full resolution because my G4 monitor doesn't have full HD rez. The max is 1152 X 768.

However, it's pretty cool to know that we're looking at these huge shots and they're not even full rez. DV NTSC is only 720 X 480!!!

Here's the link:

www.lumieremedia.com/hdv
Frederic Lumiere is offline  
Old October 24th, 2003, 07:17 PM   #29
Trustee
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,435
pathfinder.jpg:

the house's roof, doors, and back of the estate sign all have green stains - the same chroma noise I observed with my camera.

So what's your conclusion - we just live with it?
Alex Raskin is offline  
Old October 24th, 2003, 07:42 PM   #30
Wrangler
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Point Pleasant, NJ
Posts: 437
Alex,

It's night time now and I'll check tomorrow morning but I'm pretty sure these stains are on the paint of the building. I'll check and let you guys know.

If indeed these are stains from the camera it's a major bummer...however, the stains did not show up on the bright scene with the butterfly.

The best test would be to light a color pattern the best we can.

I will let you know what i find about the house.

Hey, is the only way to get m2t converted to something usable by FCP to by Steve Mullen's $100 4HDV solution?
Frederic Lumiere is offline  
 

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > And Now, For Something Completely Different... > The Archives > JVC GR-HD1U / JY-HD10U

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:53 PM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network