JVC rep - latest word

Christopher C. Murphy · October 23rd, 2003, 07:16 AM

If you're on a PC - I'm talking about Mac!

I'm all for Steve making more money for his 4HDV. He has something no one else does - yet. Like I said in my post 5 minutes ago - if Steve wants to write something that'll be a little easier I'd pay for it.

I'm pretty sure everyone out there with a Mac would pay too. I'm just not into paying over $500 for something that basically is doing a converstion. It wasn't painful to pay $100, but it would be worth $400 more to make it seemless on a Mac.

Chris

Jose Cavazos · October 23rd, 2003, 07:38 AM

I was responding to Heath and Steve.
A 2.4GHz PC with 1GB RAM and Vegas+DVD is a cheaper alternative.

Steve Mullen · October 23rd, 2003, 07:59 AM

I'll respond to you both in one.

Vegas on a 2.4 ot 2.8 can NOT do realtime effects. ALL effects must be rendered before they play smoothly.

They same limitation exists for the $5000 Heruis product. Actually, in terms of playing MPEG-2 -- Vegas does better than Heuris!

"4HDV" -- now being called "HDVcinema" -- lets you edit it real-time. Playback is full-speed. FX are real-time.

That leaves 2 real-time solutions. Aspect-HD and HDVcinema.

Chris, at this point we should work together to solve any problem you have. I need to see where you are stuck before I consider automating the process. Which is a good idea. I'll email you now.

Interesting side-point. When I talk to Hollywood type editors they respond "we don't care about these pre-edit steps. WE don't have to do it! That's what film school interns are for!" Must be nice!!!

Heath McKnight · October 23rd, 2003, 10:00 AM

I don't have a film school intern...

heath

David Newman · October 23rd, 2003, 10:02 AM

Hi Steve,
are you sure you want to change your product's name to HDVCinema, it seem that 4HDV was more unique. Also Applied Magic has its "HD Cinema" (missing your 'V') workstation -- very similar, which is the very machine you were running Aspect HD on.

Regarding real-time. Yes you can say only Aspect HD and 4HDV are real-time products. But it would be fair to add that they are not the same type of real-time (when is the definition of real-time ever the same ;) ). 4HDV is off-line, whereas Aspect HD is an on-line solution. This helps explain the price difference :) (although you probably could charge more.)

Heath McKnight · October 23rd, 2003, 10:05 AM

"Real-time," like how Apple called Final Cut Pro 3 real-time, when it was actually a DIFFERENT kind of real-time?

hwm

David Newman · October 23rd, 2003, 10:08 AM

Heath,

Exactly!

The term real-time has been killed by marketing. People always need to ask now, "what do you mean by real-time?"

Heath McKnight · October 23rd, 2003, 10:11 AM

Now FCP 4 claims to be the REAL type of real-time...I don't have it, so I have NO clue.

heath

Steve Mullen · October 23rd, 2003, 10:55 AM

FCP new real-time is like Avid's real-time a year earlier.

Which Canopus offered 3 years earlier. :)

David, "off-line" has lots of old meanings from tape and Avid.

I prefer "ProxyProcess."

But from an editor's point of view, if your Mac can support 4 streams of video (which a dual 1.42GHz PowerMac did in my review of FCP) it will be similar to Aspect HD. But, not the same as you point out.

If you look at my site, I'm careful to say you'll get the same "real-time" performance you get with DV using FCP. In other words, you get Apple's real-time. No more. No less.

It will remain "HDVcinema" because HDV isn't really "HD" as in the "HDboxx." (HDboxx is a long existing PC solution for HD.) The film community knows the difference betweeen HDV and HD. I'm not claiming HDV is the same as HD as in HDCAM or DVCPRO HD.

Alex Raskin · October 23rd, 2003, 01:35 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen : The film community knows the difference betweeen HDV and HD. -->>>

I don't :) Could you please explain? Thanks!

David Newman · October 23rd, 2003, 02:47 PM

Steve,
Aspect HD doesn't consider there to be any significant difference other than HDV is a subset of HD. HDV is just the MPEG2-TS data on DV tape standard, just another tape format. The decompressed image data is HD. Aspect HD can capture and output to HDV, but also any other Premiere compatible HD footage can be supported. We have users shooting on CineAlta or similar and editing under Aspect HD. We don't consider it only an HDV product.

Steve Mullen · October 23rd, 2003, 03:45 PM

IF you define HD only by spatial rez, then HDV is HD.

But, the plain fact is that the HDV we have now is 720p30 not 720p60.

Temporal rez is as important as spatial rez. Maybe more important.

In the Mac world there are well defined HD solutions that use PCI boards with SDI-HD input and output.

I don't consider the HDVcinema to be in this market.

And looking at your Product page I see this:

* Works with JVC's JY-HD10U and GR-HD1 HDV camcorders

* Edit in real time using familiar Adobe Premiere® 6.5

* Final output to both HD and SD resolutions in a large range of formats (MPEG2-TS, Windows Media 9, HUFF_YUV, uncompressed, DV, MPEG2-DVD, etc.)

I don't see anything about the INPUT of HDCAM or DVCPRO HD.

David Newman · October 23rd, 2003, 04:24 PM

Some corrections.

HD at 30p is an HD standard, just as is 24p. When people shot 1080 24p they are not shooting in something less than HD. Future CineForm products will directly support all HD resolutions, spatial and temporal for both high-end and low-end markets.

Today's Aspect HD complete workflow is targetted at the JVC cameras because that is where the volume market is today. This is why our first product is 720p30. However, nothing will stop a HD-SDI user from importing uncompressed AVIs into Aspect HD (yes for now 720p30.) These files are easily converted to CFHD for real-time no-proxy editing. Animaters can import TGAs, TIFFs or uncompressed AVIs straight into Aspect HD for post work. All of this is HD. Users are doing all of this.

The Apsect HD editing process (not capture or export) has nothing to do with HDV, which means it is it extremely flexible. You have previously pointed out that the CineForm files works in After Effects, just as they do in 100s of PC tools, this is a result of the codec solution included with Aspect HD. Once the user realizes this (documented or not ;) ) you can mix sources from almost anywhere.

Basically HDV is HD.

Heath McKnight · October 23rd, 2003, 07:08 PM

HDV is like mini-dv; HD is like DVCam. These are my thoughts, obviously, but I think it's mostly a very rough comparison to kind of roughly show how HDV is compared to HD.

heath

ps-Then again, as Radiohead once said, I might be wrong.

Steve Mullen · October 23rd, 2003, 07:27 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by David Newman : Some corrections.

HD at 30p is an HD standard, just as is 24p. When people shot 1080 24p they are not shooting in something less than HD. --->

You are right, 30p is an HD standard. But I'm still uncomfortable using this technically valid point to market a product into market segment that normally uses CineWave and AJA products.

I simply prefer the term HDV.

So you'll call it HD and I call it HDV.

But a question. Does Aspect HD currently handle 720p60 and 1080i?

October 23rd, 2003, 07:59 AM	#18
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	I'll respond to you both in one. Vegas on a 2.4 ot 2.8 can NOT do realtime effects. ALL effects must be rendered before they play smoothly. They same limitation exists for the $5000 Heruis product. Actually, in terms of playing MPEG-2 -- Vegas does better than Heuris! "4HDV" -- now being called "HDVcinema" -- lets you edit it real-time. Playback is full-speed. FX are real-time. That leaves 2 real-time solutions. Aspect-HD and HDVcinema. Chris, at this point we should work together to solve any problem you have. I need to see where you are stuck before I consider automating the process. Which is a good idea. I'll email you now. Interesting side-point. When I talk to Hollywood type editors they respond "we don't care about these pre-edit steps. WE don't have to do it! That's what film school interns are for!" Must be nice!!! __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

October 23rd, 2003, 10:00 AM	#19
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	I don't have a film school intern... heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

October 23rd, 2003, 10:05 AM	#21
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	"Real-time," like how Apple called Final Cut Pro 3 real-time, when it was actually a DIFFERENT kind of real-time? hwm __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

October 23rd, 2003, 10:11 AM	#23
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	Now FCP 4 claims to be the REAL type of real-time...I don't have it, so I have NO clue. heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

October 23rd, 2003, 10:55 AM	#24
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	FCP new real-time is like Avid's real-time a year earlier. Which Canopus offered 3 years earlier. :) David, "off-line" has lots of old meanings from tape and Avid. I prefer "ProxyProcess." But from an editor's point of view, if your Mac can support 4 streams of video (which a dual 1.42GHz PowerMac did in my review of FCP) it will be similar to Aspect HD. But, not the same as you point out. If you look at my site, I'm careful to say you'll get the same "real-time" performance you get with DV using FCP. In other words, you get Apple's real-time. No more. No less. It will remain "HDVcinema" because HDV isn't really "HD" as in the "HDboxx." (HDboxx is a long existing PC solution for HD.) The film community knows the difference betweeen HDV and HD. I'm not claiming HDV is the same as HD as in HDCAM or DVCPRO HD. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

October 23rd, 2003, 07:16 AM	#16
Christopher C. Murphy Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 1,707	If you're on a PC - I'm talking about Mac! I'm all for Steve making more money for his 4HDV. He has something no one else does - yet. Like I said in my post 5 minutes ago - if Steve wants to write something that'll be a little easier I'd pay for it. I'm pretty sure everyone out there with a Mac would pay too. I'm just not into paying over $500 for something that basically is doing a converstion. It wasn't painful to pay $100, but it would be worth $400 more to make it seemless on a Mac. Chris

October 23rd, 2003, 07:38 AM	#17
Jose Cavazos Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 38	I was responding to Heath and Steve. A 2.4GHz PC with 1GB RAM and Vegas+DVD is a cheaper alternative.

October 23rd, 2003, 10:02 AM	#20
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Hi Steve, are you sure you want to change your product's name to HDVCinema, it seem that 4HDV was more unique. Also Applied Magic has its "HD Cinema" (missing your 'V') workstation -- very similar, which is the very machine you were running Aspect HD on. Regarding real-time. Yes you can say only Aspect HD and 4HDV are real-time products. But it would be fair to add that they are not the same type of real-time (when is the definition of real-time ever the same ;) ). 4HDV is off-line, whereas Aspect HD is an on-line solution. This helps explain the price difference :) (although you probably could charge more.)

October 23rd, 2003, 10:08 AM	#22
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Heath, Exactly! The term real-time has been killed by marketing. People always need to ask now, "what do you mean by real-time?"

October 23rd, 2003, 01:35 PM	#25
Alex Raskin Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,435	<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen : The film community knows the difference betweeen HDV and HD. -->>> I don't :) Could you please explain? Thanks!

October 23rd, 2003, 02:47 PM	#26
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Steve, Aspect HD doesn't consider there to be any significant difference other than HDV is a subset of HD. HDV is just the MPEG2-TS data on DV tape standard, just another tape format. The decompressed image data is HD. Aspect HD can capture and output to HDV, but also any other Premiere compatible HD footage can be supported. We have users shooting on CineAlta or similar and editing under Aspect HD. We don't consider it only an HDV product.

October 23rd, 2003, 03:45 PM	#27
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	IF you define HD only by spatial rez, then HDV is HD. But, the plain fact is that the HDV we have now is 720p30 not 720p60. Temporal rez is as important as spatial rez. Maybe more important. In the Mac world there are well defined HD solutions that use PCI boards with SDI-HD input and output. I don't consider the HDVcinema to be in this market. And looking at your Product page I see this: * Works with JVC's JY-HD10U and GR-HD1 HDV camcorders * Edit in real time using familiar Adobe Premiere® 6.5 * Final output to both HD and SD resolutions in a large range of formats (MPEG2-TS, Windows Media 9, HUFF_YUV, uncompressed, DV, MPEG2-DVD, etc.) I don't see anything about the INPUT of HDCAM or DVCPRO HD. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

October 23rd, 2003, 04:24 PM	#28
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Some corrections. HD at 30p is an HD standard, just as is 24p. When people shot 1080 24p they are not shooting in something less than HD. Future CineForm products will directly support all HD resolutions, spatial and temporal for both high-end and low-end markets. Today's Aspect HD complete workflow is targetted at the JVC cameras because that is where the volume market is today. This is why our first product is 720p30. However, nothing will stop a HD-SDI user from importing uncompressed AVIs into Aspect HD (yes for now 720p30.) These files are easily converted to CFHD for real-time no-proxy editing. Animaters can import TGAs, TIFFs or uncompressed AVIs straight into Aspect HD for post work. All of this is HD. Users are doing all of this. The Apsect HD editing process (not capture or export) has nothing to do with HDV, which means it is it extremely flexible. You have previously pointed out that the CineForm files works in After Effects, just as they do in 100s of PC tools, this is a result of the codec solution included with Aspect HD. Once the user realizes this (documented or not ;) ) you can mix sources from almost anywhere. Basically HDV is HD.

October 23rd, 2003, 07:08 PM	#29
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	HDV is like mini-dv; HD is like DVCam. These are my thoughts, obviously, but I think it's mostly a very rough comparison to kind of roughly show how HDV is compared to HD. heath ps-Then again, as Radiohead once said, I might be wrong. __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

October 23rd, 2003, 07:27 PM	#30
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	<<<-- Originally posted by David Newman : Some corrections. HD at 30p is an HD standard, just as is 24p. When people shot 1080 24p they are not shooting in something less than HD. ---> You are right, 30p is an HD standard. But I'm still uncomfortable using this technically valid point to market a product into market segment that normally uses CineWave and AJA products. I simply prefer the term HDV. So you'll call it HD and I call it HDV. But a question. Does Aspect HD currently handle 720p60 and 1080i? __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

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