What other HD cams are coming out?

Scott Anderson · January 5th, 2004, 12:01 PM

It has been stated time and time again in these forums, but the HD-10's features make the extra $500 well worth it.

If memory serves, the HD-10 has a higher resolution viewfinder and/or LCD, more sophisticated image processing (most notably a more subtle edge enhancement), the XLR adapter, and built-in color bars.

Even if you don't need the more "pro" features of the HD-10, I'm thinking there are still valid reasons to spend the extra money. A better viewfinder will make it easier to focus the camera, which is all the more critical when shooting in HD. The edge enhancement is supposedly heavy handed on both cameras, but less so on the 10 vs the 1. You'll want to start out with the best image possible for those once in a lifetime memories. Lastly, you will at some point want to sell this camera when the new crop of (vastly superior? Let's hope!) HDV cams come out. I just don't think the HD-1 will have nearly the resale value of the HD-10.

Evan Malter · January 5th, 2004, 12:52 PM

Scott-

I have been having this debate in my head for a few weeks now and have gone back and forth many times. I decided last night not to bite the bullet, but instead to save some money. However, I will always welcome your arguments as I would much rather make the right decision.

Let me start by saying that I will likely be using this 100% for personal use and mostly simply to capture family moments, etc. I am a professional photographer and so my interest and abilities go beyond the average consumer, but I have no video experience and am still quite partial to still images. I could see myself getting a little more into video, but never will have time to do major stuff. I am a big HDTV fan and an early adopter - thus the HD1 or HD10.

Now, it should be stated that I find the price difference more around $1000 - because JVC has a $400 rebate when you buy the HD1 and a DVHS recorder (which I'd like to buy) and the initial price difference is $600 at B&H where I plan on buying it. With that said - I have decided to go HD1 because: 1) the XLR inputs and color bars are pretty irrelevant to me. 2) the better viewfinder would be nice but not worth more than a few $100 (unless someone tells me that the lesser ability to focus will greatly decrease my output on a consistent basis). 3) The edge enhancement issue has been the big sticking point, but after many trips in circles and without the ability to really compare them for myself (no place that has both) - I decided that for my purposes the video would still look spectacular and paying $2000 rather than $3000 is very significant - no matter how you cut it.

As far as resell goes - like I said I am not really big into video and hope that with this purchase - I will ride the camera out through many generations of improvements and thus the resale in the end will be minimal either way.

So, the $1000 in my pocket and having a nice HD camcorder - seems like the way to go for me. Please tell me again if you think I am making a huge mistake. I still don't fully understand what the "bad edge enhancement" looks like. Is it so bad that i may as well save another $1000 and buy a DV953 instead? Will most still think that the image is incredible? Is this more an issue for people trying to sell the video - or will it bother me also? Can any filters (SoftFX) maybe tone down the edge enhancement and bring the quality closer to the HD10?

I am more than willing to spend the extra $1000 if I think that it is worth while and significantly increases the quality of the video - but if it is just "a little nicer" - I'd save the money for something else. I am already making the leap from $1200 that I was considering spending on the DV953 to $2400 for the HD1 - so I am not afraid to make that next leap, but it has to be worth it. I welcome everyone’s opinion.

I will hold off a little longer on my purchase to hear your feedback.

Thank you to everyone, in advance for their input.

Les Dit · January 5th, 2004, 02:58 PM

On the viewfinder, You end up not using it much. The LCD is easier to use. The LCD is the same on both.I have yet to use the viewfinder on my HD10.
I use a hood on the LCD outdoors.
-Les

Scott Anderson · January 5th, 2004, 05:52 PM

Evan, you've oviously done your homework. For your purposes, I may have come to exactly the same decision myself. Thanks, Les. I couldn't remember if it was the viewfinder or LCD or both. I agree that the LCD is the main weapon of choice.

I think the question you have to ask now, like most tech purchases, is how long can you stand to have an outdated camcorder? I pity the folks who bought a DVX-100 in September. Something new is always right around the corner. Although I don't hold out much hope for an HD Canon XL-2 at this year's NAB, I do suspect that at least 1 or 2 HDV cams will be released by the end of 2004. Keep in mind that this is totally unscientific, and not based on any insider knowledge. It's just my 6th sense, having attended the last 8 NAB's and having developed a strong sense of development timelines and where the market is headed.

The edge enhancement looks like too much Sharpen+Unsharp Mask filter in Photoshop. Too much contrast, but only on the edges of objects. It can be less noticable at 30fps, but still annoying to the discerning viewer. That said, I know that well-shot footage from the HD-1 is still mighty impressive. It's just when you start pushing the limitations of the camera that the image falls apart. That's the way it goes with all video, come to think of it.

Considering that your main use for the next few years will be watching home movies on your great big HDTV, I think that the HD-1 is a much better choice than even the best DV cam. Nothing points out the limitations of NTSC than up-rezzing it to HD. You may be blown away by the imagery of the HD-1. I certainly was when I saw it at CES for the first time. You may decide the image is fine as is, or learn to expose very carefully so as to not push the limitations of the camera. You might try a combination of low contrast, ND or pola filters as has already been discussed at length on these boards. The photgrapher in you already knows all of this by heart.

Either way, I'm envious. My 2-year old is only going to have DV footage to watch when he grows up.

Evan Malter · January 5th, 2004, 05:58 PM

thanks Scott for your thoughtful responses. Hearing confirmation that my choice is a good one from someone who had originally said "you must get the HD10" is very helpful. I think i am ready to make the plunge - one more night to sleep on it.

Thanks everyone.

Mark Nauth · January 5th, 2004, 07:28 PM

Ken,

How do you know that Canon and Sony won't be coming out with an HD camcorder? Can you please provide supporting facts?

Ken Hodson · January 5th, 2004, 08:31 PM

Mark- I never said Sony and Canon won't be coming out with an HD cam.

Ken

Mark Nauth · January 5th, 2004, 10:11 PM

Ken,

One of your previous replies states:

"Canon and Sony will not be introducing HDV cams to compete with their successful consumer lines, at least not initially."

I'm asking how you know this?

Ken Hodson · January 5th, 2004, 11:10 PM

Your misunderstanding. I am saying they won't be comming out with "consumer" cams. They very well may come out with "Pro" or high end cams. But they will be expensive.
This was in regard to Evans decision on wether to but a HD1 or not.
Ken

Mark Nauth · January 5th, 2004, 11:37 PM

Is there a difference between prosumer and high end?

Christopher C. Murphy · January 6th, 2004, 08:56 AM

Yeah, the "prosumer" stuff is made for people on tight budgets. However, need "pro" features to complete their work.

The only problem with prosumer gear is that the companies who make the cameras don't include EVERY dream feature. It's usually a stripped down version of their best cams..you can almost achieve the same results, but not exactly. I can understand their position...and truly appreciate it when they step up to the plate.

In my opinion, the Sony PD-150 is perfect example of a "prosumer" camera. It's got everything you need to shoot "pro" stuff in the realm of DV. However, it's lacking enough resolution and such that it doesn't compete with their top of the line. It's a good balence in my opinion because your talents can be utilized with the camera...and you'll kick some butt, then you'll make some money..and eventually upgrade to the best. If you have talent - prosumer gear works very nicely. Another example of prosumer is Final Cut Pro. That editing software is only $999! It's definately proven itself, so anyone willing to shovel 25 driveways for a month (in the Northeast) or shine 100 surfboards in the south.....you've got yourself a great prosumer editing package!

In short, prosumer is the key word for a working stiff in the business of video or digital filmmaking. If you're good...you can make your way up the chain. Maybe we can start a seperate thread entiled, "The Best Prosumer Gear with Ratings!"

I'd like to see an updated list of that from time to time....

Murph

Heath McKnight · January 6th, 2004, 12:43 PM

I've heard about a rumor of a possible 3 chip Sony camera that will actually be SD chips that are electronically uprezzed to HDV. This is a rumor for now, but if true, I'm not sure about the SD uprezzed to HDV...

heath

Ken Hodson · January 6th, 2004, 02:21 PM

Kind of the reverse of JVC's PAL cam that is down res'ed to SD.

Ken

Heath McKnight · January 6th, 2004, 02:34 PM

Isn't this what the HD10 does? SD chip uprezzing to HD? Or am I totally wrong?

heath

Evan Malter · January 7th, 2004, 01:21 PM

I just wanted to thank everyone for all of their input and let you know that I did end up buying the HD1 - it should be here in a few days.

Thanks again.

January 5th, 2004, 12:01 PM	#16
Scott Anderson Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 327	Evan - Bite the HD10 bullet, please! It has been stated time and time again in these forums, but the HD-10's features make the extra $500 well worth it. If memory serves, the HD-10 has a higher resolution viewfinder and/or LCD, more sophisticated image processing (most notably a more subtle edge enhancement), the XLR adapter, and built-in color bars. Even if you don't need the more "pro" features of the HD-10, I'm thinking there are still valid reasons to spend the extra money. A better viewfinder will make it easier to focus the camera, which is all the more critical when shooting in HD. The edge enhancement is supposedly heavy handed on both cameras, but less so on the 10 vs the 1. You'll want to start out with the best image possible for those once in a lifetime memories. Lastly, you will at some point want to sell this camera when the new crop of (vastly superior? Let's hope!) HDV cams come out. I just don't think the HD-1 will have nearly the resale value of the HD-10.

January 5th, 2004, 12:52 PM	#17
Evan Malter New Boot Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 22	the debate goes on Scott- I have been having this debate in my head for a few weeks now and have gone back and forth many times. I decided last night not to bite the bullet, but instead to save some money. However, I will always welcome your arguments as I would much rather make the right decision. Let me start by saying that I will likely be using this 100% for personal use and mostly simply to capture family moments, etc. I am a professional photographer and so my interest and abilities go beyond the average consumer, but I have no video experience and am still quite partial to still images. I could see myself getting a little more into video, but never will have time to do major stuff. I am a big HDTV fan and an early adopter - thus the HD1 or HD10. Now, it should be stated that I find the price difference more around $1000 - because JVC has a $400 rebate when you buy the HD1 and a DVHS recorder (which I'd like to buy) and the initial price difference is $600 at B&H where I plan on buying it. With that said - I have decided to go HD1 because: 1) the XLR inputs and color bars are pretty irrelevant to me. 2) the better viewfinder would be nice but not worth more than a few $100 (unless someone tells me that the lesser ability to focus will greatly decrease my output on a consistent basis). 3) The edge enhancement issue has been the big sticking point, but after many trips in circles and without the ability to really compare them for myself (no place that has both) - I decided that for my purposes the video would still look spectacular and paying $2000 rather than $3000 is very significant - no matter how you cut it. As far as resell goes - like I said I am not really big into video and hope that with this purchase - I will ride the camera out through many generations of improvements and thus the resale in the end will be minimal either way. So, the $1000 in my pocket and having a nice HD camcorder - seems like the way to go for me. Please tell me again if you think I am making a huge mistake. I still don't fully understand what the "bad edge enhancement" looks like. Is it so bad that i may as well save another $1000 and buy a DV953 instead? Will most still think that the image is incredible? Is this more an issue for people trying to sell the video - or will it bother me also? Can any filters (SoftFX) maybe tone down the edge enhancement and bring the quality closer to the HD10? I am more than willing to spend the extra $1000 if I think that it is worth while and significantly increases the quality of the video - but if it is just "a little nicer" - I'd save the money for something else. I am already making the leap from $1200 that I was considering spending on the DV953 to $2400 for the HD1 - so I am not afraid to make that next leap, but it has to be worth it. I welcome everyone’s opinion. I will hold off a little longer on my purchase to hear your feedback. Thank you to everyone, in advance for their input.

January 5th, 2004, 08:31 PM	#22
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	Mark- I never said Sony and Canon won't be coming out with an HD cam. Ken __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

January 5th, 2004, 11:10 PM	#24
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	Your misunderstanding. I am saying they won't be comming out with "consumer" cams. They very well may come out with "Pro" or high end cams. But they will be expensive. This was in regard to Evans decision on wether to but a HD1 or not. Ken __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

January 6th, 2004, 08:56 AM	#26
Christopher C. Murphy Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 1,707	Yeah, the "prosumer" stuff is made for people on tight budgets. However, need "pro" features to complete their work. The only problem with prosumer gear is that the companies who make the cameras don't include EVERY dream feature. It's usually a stripped down version of their best cams..you can almost achieve the same results, but not exactly. I can understand their position...and truly appreciate it when they step up to the plate. In my opinion, the Sony PD-150 is perfect example of a "prosumer" camera. It's got everything you need to shoot "pro" stuff in the realm of DV. However, it's lacking enough resolution and such that it doesn't compete with their top of the line. It's a good balence in my opinion because your talents can be utilized with the camera...and you'll kick some butt, then you'll make some money..and eventually upgrade to the best. If you have talent - prosumer gear works very nicely. Another example of prosumer is Final Cut Pro. That editing software is only $999! It's definately proven itself, so anyone willing to shovel 25 driveways for a month (in the Northeast) or shine 100 surfboards in the south.....you've got yourself a great prosumer editing package! In short, prosumer is the key word for a working stiff in the business of video or digital filmmaking. If you're good...you can make your way up the chain. Maybe we can start a seperate thread entiled, "The Best Prosumer Gear with Ratings!" I'd like to see an updated list of that from time to time.... Murph __________________ Christopher C. Murphy Director, Producer, Writer

January 5th, 2004, 02:58 PM	#18
Les Dit Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southern Cal-ee-for-Ni-ya Posts: 608	On the viewfinder, You end up not using it much. The LCD is easier to use. The LCD is the same on both.I have yet to use the viewfinder on my HD10. I use a hood on the LCD outdoors. -Les

January 5th, 2004, 05:52 PM	#19
Scott Anderson Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 327	Evan, you've oviously done your homework. For your purposes, I may have come to exactly the same decision myself. Thanks, Les. I couldn't remember if it was the viewfinder or LCD or both. I agree that the LCD is the main weapon of choice. I think the question you have to ask now, like most tech purchases, is how long can you stand to have an outdated camcorder? I pity the folks who bought a DVX-100 in September. Something new is always right around the corner. Although I don't hold out much hope for an HD Canon XL-2 at this year's NAB, I do suspect that at least 1 or 2 HDV cams will be released by the end of 2004. Keep in mind that this is totally unscientific, and not based on any insider knowledge. It's just my 6th sense, having attended the last 8 NAB's and having developed a strong sense of development timelines and where the market is headed. The edge enhancement looks like too much Sharpen+Unsharp Mask filter in Photoshop. Too much contrast, but only on the edges of objects. It can be less noticable at 30fps, but still annoying to the discerning viewer. That said, I know that well-shot footage from the HD-1 is still mighty impressive. It's just when you start pushing the limitations of the camera that the image falls apart. That's the way it goes with all video, come to think of it. Considering that your main use for the next few years will be watching home movies on your great big HDTV, I think that the HD-1 is a much better choice than even the best DV cam. Nothing points out the limitations of NTSC than up-rezzing it to HD. You may be blown away by the imagery of the HD-1. I certainly was when I saw it at CES for the first time. You may decide the image is fine as is, or learn to expose very carefully so as to not push the limitations of the camera. You might try a combination of low contrast, ND or pola filters as has already been discussed at length on these boards. The photgrapher in you already knows all of this by heart. Either way, I'm envious. My 2-year old is only going to have DV footage to watch when he grows up.

January 5th, 2004, 05:58 PM	#20
Evan Malter New Boot Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 22	thanks Scott for your thoughtful responses. Hearing confirmation that my choice is a good one from someone who had originally said "you must get the HD10" is very helpful. I think i am ready to make the plunge - one more night to sleep on it. Thanks everyone.

January 5th, 2004, 07:28 PM	#21
Mark Nauth New Boot Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 15	Ken, How do you know that Canon and Sony won't be coming out with an HD camcorder? Can you please provide supporting facts?

January 5th, 2004, 10:11 PM	#23
Mark Nauth New Boot Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 15	Ken, One of your previous replies states: "Canon and Sony will not be introducing HDV cams to compete with their successful consumer lines, at least not initially." I'm asking how you know this?

January 5th, 2004, 11:37 PM	#25
Mark Nauth New Boot Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 15	Is there a difference between prosumer and high end?

January 6th, 2004, 12:43 PM	#27
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	NAB rumor of a Sony camera I've heard about a rumor of a possible 3 chip Sony camera that will actually be SD chips that are electronically uprezzed to HDV. This is a rumor for now, but if true, I'm not sure about the SD uprezzed to HDV... heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

January 6th, 2004, 02:21 PM	#28
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	Kind of the reverse of JVC's PAL cam that is down res'ed to SD. Ken __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

January 6th, 2004, 02:34 PM	#29
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	Isn't this what the HD10 does? SD chip uprezzing to HD? Or am I totally wrong? heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

January 7th, 2004, 01:21 PM	#30
Evan Malter New Boot Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 22	back to my HD1 decision I just wanted to thank everyone for all of their input and let you know that I did end up buying the HD1 - it should be here in a few days. Thanks again.