Comparison frames from HD-1/HD-10 - Page 2 at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > And Now, For Something Completely Different... > The Archives > JVC GR-HD1U / JY-HD10U

JVC GR-HD1U / JY-HD10U
All about the original single-CCD HDV camcorders from JVC.


 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old January 11th, 2004, 11:17 PM   #16
MPS Digital Studios
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Palm Beach County, Florida
Posts: 8,531
Re: you're right

<<<-- Originally posted by James Ball : No manual mode. Doesn't seem possible,

sorry, dumb rich kids question. i've never owned a camera that didn't cost $2000 or more.

I'm just catching up and seeing that many are disappointed in this shortcoming especially on the "pro" model. -->>>

What do you mean by "dumb rich kids." Just curious. Many may be disappointed with the lack of true manual controls on the HD10, but the image more than makes up for it.

heath
__________________
My Final Cut Pro X blog
Heath McKnight is offline  
Old January 11th, 2004, 11:20 PM   #17
Trustee
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Vancouver BC Canada
Posts: 1,315
Yes there are a few features, or lack of, that are disapointing. This camera isn't so much a matter of what it can't do, but what it can do. Certain features were not allowed for marketing reasons. But its still the best thing going right now!

Ken
__________________
Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.
Ken Hodson is offline  
Old January 11th, 2004, 11:23 PM   #18
MPS Digital Studios
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Palm Beach County, Florida
Posts: 8,531
Well said, Ken!

heath
__________________
My Final Cut Pro X blog
Heath McKnight is offline  
Old January 13th, 2004, 06:12 PM   #19
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 30
Now if someone could only "crack" the EEPROM on the HD1 or HD10, we'd be in business...

My real question is this. For those of you who have been fortunate to have used both the HD1 and HD10, can you describe the edge enhancement of the HD10 as being the same all around as the edge enhancement of the HD1 in the vertical direction (i.e. not much).

I'm selling my HD1 because the horizontal edge enhancement is TOTALLY out of control. It is very visible, especially if you get the sky in any of your shots. I took footage of snow landscapes and of AM radio towers. They are not watcheable (at least to me). I'd love to see some real HD10 footage of a tower against the sky, or of trees against a snow covered background, etc.

Funny thing is that the tower I'm referring to was WHITE and red! So the EE went nuts doing white on light blue. The red parts were fine... The white all turned into black horizontal lines. The EE really does look like it is horizontal edges only.

Oh, try a Christmas tree... That's a total mess on the HD1 too... It tries to enhance the lights and turns them all into little blobs of white surrounded by black. I tried different exposure settings, etc. Couldn't get it to stop that.

I'm trying to figure out whether I should grab the HD10 after I get my HD1 sold, or simply wait. I come from a TRV900, which I think is too soft, especially now that I've had a taste of HD... I still have the TRV900 since it is such a beautiful thing.

OK, I'm rambling. Is there anyone who is unhappy with the amount of edge enhancement on the HD10?

Thanks for the input!

- GLupien
Gordon Lupien Jr. is offline  
Old January 13th, 2004, 08:03 PM   #20
Major Player
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Studio City, CA
Posts: 236
Gordon,

What type of video system are you watching the footage on? I have a 55" 1080i capable HDTV ISF calibrated set and I just viewed some of my HD1 footage on a 50" 720p DLP set today that wasn't calibrated and I'm not really seeing a big problem with the edge enhancement issue. I've done Christmas trees, mountain ranges in CA and NV and I've yet to see the overabundance that everyone else sees. I wonder if the upconversion to 1080i by the camera has any bearing on the magnification of the edge enhancement?

Maybe I have a slightly higher tolerance or something but I'm not sure. I do know that I can pick out edge enhancement on just about any DVD I watch because I'm tuned into it moreso. I know that Episode I: The Phantom Menace DVD is horridly riddled with edge enhancement.

Then again I'm not intending to use my HD1 for anything other than typical "family" stuff so I guess as long as that suites me I'm fine.

Quote:
Now if someone could only "crack" the EEPROM on the HD1 or HD10, we'd be in business...
You hit the nail on the head with that one! Either that or access to the service menu. :)

Troy
Troy Lamont is offline  
Old January 13th, 2004, 10:43 PM   #21
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 30
Yes, Episode 1 is bad, but what I see from the GR-HD1 is much much worse. You have to have the right conditions for it to happen. I've filmed skylines and other things fine too, but every now and then the camera goes wild. It seems to happen when you have a contrasty step between two light shades. You then get BLACK between the two light shades, and more than a couple pixels wide.

I haven't experimented with editing too much, and I just got Vegas, but I have no time, so if someone can tell me how to extract a frame from the MPEG stream, I'll post a few on my website, so you can see what I mean. I know, RTFM, but just tell me if there's a way to capture a frame from tape and store it to the SD card, or whatever...

What do I use to view? I use an Electrohome 9500LC projector projecting a 115" 16:9 image on a DaLite 1.2 gain screen. The Electrohome 9500LC is arguably the best video projection platform in existance and it is the same unit as a Vidikron Vision or Madrigal MP8 and MP9. It is capable of resolving in excess of maximum HD resolutions when properly calibrated, and has incredible contrast.

I recorded the video through 1394 to my JVC D-VHS deck and then played it directly to the projector. There should be no loss or conversion there except by the D-VHS deck to 1080i. That said, some stuff looks great (which is making me consider the HD10) and other stuff is absolute crap (and not due to lighting or other operator error). I can't see how you can compose or adjust the edge enhancement out.

The edge enhancement issue is completely visible on the computer too, so I don't think it's my imagination.

You probably have not shot the right thing to see it in full force yet.

- GLupien
Gordon Lupien Jr. is offline  
Old January 13th, 2004, 11:54 PM   #22
New Boot
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 19
<<<-- Originally posted by Ken Hodson : James - I would suggest you read up on these cameras features. You are demmanding things that are not possible.

Diu - "if you want to compare, compare on the same setting"
He did, both in auto mode.

Ken -->>>

same setting means not only the mode they shoot, but what they shoot, what time they shoot, get? and take out your rule and measure, tell me if those two grab are in the same width.
Diu Hai is offline  
Old January 14th, 2004, 10:10 AM   #23
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: North Ridgeville, Ohio
Posts: 407
GLupien,

I've used two ways to grab stills. You can set the "still" camera in the HD1-10 to take "snapshots" from the DV tape instead of the camera - check the menus. I have obtained identical results by setting my monitor to 1280 horizontal, pausing a frame in a player such as Elecard, and pressing PRINT SCREEN. You can then PASTE from the clipboard into your favorite graphics program, and crop to get rid of the extra stuff.

Keep in mind TVs are going to add more detail gain than you'll see on computer. Try turning SHARPNESS down on your TV. Just some thoughts.
__________________
Dave
David Kennett is offline  
Old January 14th, 2004, 04:10 PM   #24
Major Player
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Studio City, CA
Posts: 236
Quote:
Electrohome 9500LC projector projecting a 115" 16:9 image on a DaLite 1.2 gain screen.
So that rules out the display. :) Nice setup by the way.

I think I may not be aware of what to look for. You can copy a frame from the video to the memory card and then to PC like this;
  • Set playback to VIDEO
  • Set the camcorder to PLAY
  • In the DSC (camera icon) menu turn on the function TAPE to MEMORY CARD (REC SELECT)
  • Play the tape and pause it on the frame you want to capture
  • Press the SNAPSHOT (picture) button

The image is then stored on the memory card and you can download it via the USB cable to your PC.

You can also capture video to the PC and do a frame grab that way but it's a little more involved.

I'd like to see more examples to make sure I'm looking for the right thing.

Thanks.

Troy
Troy Lamont is offline  
Old January 14th, 2004, 06:07 PM   #25
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 30
Hi David,

Actually, since I am using RGBHV inputs (yes, there is a YCbCr to RGBHV converter in line, but I know it doesn't change the picture much, if at all) on my projector, I cannot modify the sharpness or color. What comes in is projected (kind of the beauty of it, in a way). You have to use external scalers or other components to adjust sharpness, hue, etc.

I've uploaded some goodies (thanks for the help!)

Go here:

http://home.rochester.rr.com/trurovacations/HD1/

The four pictures here are full size captures from tape to SD. The last one, called "lookhere.jpg" is an obvious pointer to what should be an obvious bunch of edge enhancement.

One thing I noticed while messing around in my photo program is that the white is at the maximum (255). Maybe the edge enhancement goes nuts when there is overexposure in the shot... Interesting. Problem is that it should not overdue the edge enhancement when something gets overexposed lile that. If I dialed the ND's down any more than I had them, the whole thing would have been dark... Maybe that's what you have to do??? And then what, change the gamma in your editing program?

Any feedback from HD10 folks? Can you take something slightly overexposed and let us take a look at some edges?

Please check out the shots and let me know what you think... The HD1 is on the chopping block right now anyways, so I'd really like to know about the HD10.

- GLupien
Gordon Lupien Jr. is offline  
Old January 14th, 2004, 06:20 PM   #26
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 30
Oops, exceeded my quota. The lookhere.jpg file did not get transferred.

I think you'll see the edge enhancement if you zoom in on the tower, and if you look at the telephone wires, etc.

- GLupien
Gordon Lupien Jr. is offline  
Old January 14th, 2004, 06:30 PM   #27
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Sulphur, LA
Posts: 61
crack eeprom

I have an eeprom reader/burner but I don't currently have a GR-HDXXU

unfortunately we'd need a schematic to tell us the eeprom part number (check your manual or see if a service manual is available)or a very brave individual to open their camera to read the part number off. It would almost certainly void your warranty.

***I am not asking anyone to do this***

on top of that not all eeprom reader/burners read all types of eeproms. so it's possible though I think unlikely that my burner would work.

on top of that not all eeproms are socketed. but most are.

the eeprom will usually look like a chip that has a round divet in it with a little piece of black plastic tape over it. to erase an eeprom you lift off the plastic tape shielding and expose it to UV.

once you have the code from the eeprom you need to know how to read assembler for the microprocessor chip that controlls the camera. usually you'll get lucky and it'll have commented code

a collaborative effort would also take sharing what you learn but participants would have to be very careful not to publish whole sections of code, you'd have to refer to line numbers or block numbers or something.

once the code was changed everyone would have to 1)buy their own burners, suck in the code, burn a backup onto a spare eeprom, modify their code, install the mod. eprom to try it out.

the code base belongs to JVC though and I don't know much about whether you could get into trouble working together.

anyway as you see this would be a major undertaking. but from what I hear it would take something like that to get the cameras up to snuff.

the HD1 and 10u use the same chip though and I suspect that all the real differences lie either the eeprom or the DSP/eeprom.

sorry to ramble

I've had to do something similar for other equipment I own.
James Ball is offline  
Old January 14th, 2004, 06:33 PM   #28
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 30
More analysis. Very interesting. If you look at the histogram of a given frame, you can see a pattern below the 35 level (that's 0-255, where 255 is max white and 0 is black). This is the edge enhancement.

If you modify your levels in the histogram to just look at 0-35 or so, the edges that were enhanced will dominate the image and you can see what a mess the camera makes of a given frame of video. Obviously this will show up and be more visible as you try and crank the shadows using a gamma adjustment during edit.

It seems to be VERY selective about what it enhances somehow (horizontal lines only, and only certain types of edges). The woods in the back of the tower shots is very nice, with hardly any enhancement. Any parts of the tower or building are very enhanced. I think it's this uneven enhancement, and the fact that whatever is actually enhanced is VERY enhanced that grinds my nerves when I watch the video from the HD1. There is no middle ground (or the middle ground is uncommon).

Overall, it's just plain wrong.

- GLupien
Gordon Lupien Jr. is offline  
Old January 14th, 2004, 06:39 PM   #29
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 30
Yeah, and aside from that, the eeprom may be internal to the processor. AND it may be locked (like the Sony NX80V and higher palm based handhelds...).

It is really just a pipedream.

You'd have to unsolder the eeprom or processor, read it, alter the program and then write it to a new part.

Of course, you could just go in there and override the iris (which has to be electro-mechanical) at least. Then you could adjust the shutter speed with a fixed iris and only give the camera the opportunity to play exposure games.

I'd say we wait until about three generations of HD cameras come out and these are a dime a dozen. Then we play when it's not worth playing anymore... ;-)

- GLupien
Gordon Lupien Jr. is offline  
Old January 14th, 2004, 07:08 PM   #30
Major Player
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Studio City, CA
Posts: 236
Wow

Those pictures are classic! None of my footage looks anything like that. Although I've only had my camera for a few weeks and like you said Gordon, I may not have been shooting under the right conditions.

None of the photos were touched up? Some of the wires and the tower girders look like they have interlace artifacting going on. What appears to be dark edge enhancement on the tower shots looks overly done. It also looks like you may have caught a shot or two mid-frame it's very difficult to compose a focused frame exactly where you want it to catch a snap-shot.

I just double checked a lot of footage I had including electric wires, electric towers in the distant mountain, skyline mountain shots, Vegas buildings, highway signs, horzontal lines on a table and others and I didn't see the problems that some of your pictures had. I'll post some video clips of my shots tomorrow if I can. Can you post the actual video clip of that scence? If not you can send it to me and I can post it.

I'll do some of the same types of shots tomorrow to see if I can replicate your results.

So those were shot with ND filters in place and on manual with what additional settings?

Quote:
Then we play when it's not worth playing anymore.
You would think by then they would have gotten it right.

Troy
Troy Lamont is offline  
 

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > And Now, For Something Completely Different... > The Archives > JVC GR-HD1U / JY-HD10U

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:42 PM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network