Comparison frames from HD-1/HD-10 at DVinfo.net

David Kennett · January 9th, 2004, 08:22 AM

The frames were cropped from grabs (no resampling).
The HD-1 creates black borders around the white letters in the STOP sign where there are none. This has been discussed before , but I think this shows the difference a bit more clearly.

Here's the link: http://www.videosaurus.com/~kennett/HD1-10.JPG

Thanks to Andres Lucero for the link.

Ken Hodson · January 9th, 2004, 01:28 PM

Thanks for the comparison David.
The HD-10 image is darker. Were the settings on the cams the same or were both done in Auto modes?
The HD1 picture seems to be a little more detailed (check the grass and the bricks) than the HD10.
Ken.

Heath McKnight · January 9th, 2004, 02:31 PM

HD1's shot--is that from the edge enhancement?

heath

David Kennett · January 9th, 2004, 02:51 PM

Ken - They were in auto mode - and HD10 is darker. You're right, other things look crisper (maybe not more detailed). The problem is that most new TV sets also add some edge enhancement. So how much does the camera manufacturer add? I prefer adding a little sharpness to frame grabs from the HD10. (Although none was done here).

Heath - yes, black edges are from edge enhancement. They show up other places too, such as a tree line against a bright sky. There will be a dark border on the trees where they meet the sky. Edge enhancement can really make a picture look crisp - but it has to be done very carefully.

Heath McKnight · January 9th, 2004, 02:54 PM

That's something I wouldn't really like, edge enhancement.

heath

David Kennett · January 9th, 2004, 03:18 PM

Heath - the HD10 has edge enhancement too. (all cameras have it). In my view, the HD10 was done with more finesse - the HD1 was a bit heavy-handed.

Heath McKnight · January 9th, 2004, 03:23 PM

Okay, correction: I don't want "heavy handed" edge enhancement! :-)

heath

Shawn Mielke · January 9th, 2004, 06:29 PM

Possibly a lamo question from an HD ignoramus:
Why would HD need any kind of edge enhancement?
Isn't it crystal clear enough?
Wouldn't any sort of enhancement stand out from the clarity of HD as noise?
It makes no sense.

Shawn

DSR PDX10

Heath McKnight · January 9th, 2004, 07:08 PM

My friend Jon mentioned that on the HD1, it makes sense, because the consumer would want that sort of thing.

heath

Shawn Mielke · January 9th, 2004, 08:39 PM

Can the EE on the HD10 be dialed out/down the way Sharpness on my PDX10 can? Sharpness makes a mess out of SD, I can't believe people find this sort of thing to be an improvement of images.

Les Dit · January 10th, 2004, 03:18 AM

It's interesting to note that the extra sharpening on the HD1 is not done on vertical edges. Looks like scan line based processing, as opposed to a true area operation. ( less CPU needed ).
Look at the stop sign left and right edges. Same.

BTW, sharpening is pretty much done to all footage, including 35mm film scans. Done correctly, it is used to compensate for optical path losses. Kodak film equipment used to call it 'Aperture correction'.
-Les

James Ball · January 10th, 2004, 05:22 PM

Can you put them both in manual mode and then do a comparison, no sharpening, 1/4 scale, 1/2 scale sharpening. The shot you chose has a range of shadow valuess it would be nice if there were some range of whites.

A lot of cameras also have sharpening just for red.

I could also provide you with an 8X10 grayscale and resolution chart.

The ringing is definately due to edge enhancement but this parameter should be be controllable.

I have some nice cameras but I'm looking at getting one of the HDs

Diu Hai · January 10th, 2004, 06:18 PM

it is obvious the grab of hd1 is wider than the hd10, did you shoot at different resolution?and what happened to that thingy on the left of the stop sign? it is behind the sign on hd1, and jump over to the front on hd10?
if you want to compare, compare on the same setting.

Ken Hodson · January 10th, 2004, 10:52 PM

James - I would suggest you read up on these cameras features. You are demmanding things that are not possible.

Diu - "if you want to compare, compare on the same setting"
He did, both in auto mode.

Ken

James Ball · January 11th, 2004, 11:52 PM

No manual mode. Doesn't seem possible,

sorry, dumb rich kids question. i've never owned a camera that didn't cost $2000 or more.

I'm just catching up and seeing that many are disappointed in this shortcoming especially on the "pro" model.

January 9th, 2004, 08:22 AM	#1
David Kennett Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Ridgeville, Ohio Posts: 407	Comparison frames from HD-1/HD-10 The frames were cropped from grabs (no resampling). The HD-1 creates black borders around the white letters in the STOP sign where there are none. This has been discussed before , but I think this shows the difference a bit more clearly. Here's the link: http://www.videosaurus.com/~kennett/HD1-10.JPG Thanks to Andres Lucero for the link. __________________ Dave

January 9th, 2004, 01:28 PM	#2
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	Thanks for the comparison David. The HD-10 image is darker. Were the settings on the cams the same or were both done in Auto modes? The HD1 picture seems to be a little more detailed (check the grass and the bricks) than the HD10. Ken. __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

January 9th, 2004, 02:31 PM	#3
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	HD1's shot--is that from the edge enhancement? heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

January 9th, 2004, 02:51 PM	#4
David Kennett Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Ridgeville, Ohio Posts: 407	Ken - They were in auto mode - and HD10 is darker. You're right, other things look crisper (maybe not more detailed). The problem is that most new TV sets also add some edge enhancement. So how much does the camera manufacturer add? I prefer adding a little sharpness to frame grabs from the HD10. (Although none was done here). Heath - yes, black edges are from edge enhancement. They show up other places too, such as a tree line against a bright sky. There will be a dark border on the trees where they meet the sky. Edge enhancement can really make a picture look crisp - but it has to be done very carefully. __________________ Dave

January 9th, 2004, 02:54 PM	#5
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	That's something I wouldn't really like, edge enhancement. heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

January 9th, 2004, 03:18 PM	#6
David Kennett Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Ridgeville, Ohio Posts: 407	Heath - the HD10 has edge enhancement too. (all cameras have it). In my view, the HD10 was done with more finesse - the HD1 was a bit heavy-handed. __________________ Dave

January 9th, 2004, 03:23 PM	#7
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	Okay, correction: I don't want "heavy handed" edge enhancement! :-) heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

January 9th, 2004, 06:29 PM	#8
Shawn Mielke Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Santa Rosa, California Posts: 745	Possibly a lamo question from an HD ignoramus: Why would HD need any kind of edge enhancement? Isn't it crystal clear enough? Wouldn't any sort of enhancement stand out from the clarity of HD as noise? It makes no sense. Shawn DSR PDX10 __________________ Breakthrough In Grey Room

January 9th, 2004, 07:08 PM	#9
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	My friend Jon mentioned that on the HD1, it makes sense, because the consumer would want that sort of thing. heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

January 9th, 2004, 08:39 PM	#10
Shawn Mielke Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Santa Rosa, California Posts: 745	Can the EE on the HD10 be dialed out/down the way Sharpness on my PDX10 can? Sharpness makes a mess out of SD, I can't believe people find this sort of thing to be an improvement of images. __________________ Breakthrough In Grey Room

January 10th, 2004, 03:18 AM	#11
Les Dit Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southern Cal-ee-for-Ni-ya Posts: 608	It's interesting to note that the extra sharpening on the HD1 is not done on vertical edges. Looks like scan line based processing, as opposed to a true area operation. ( less CPU needed ). Look at the stop sign left and right edges. Same. BTW, sharpening is pretty much done to all footage, including 35mm film scans. Done correctly, it is used to compensate for optical path losses. Kodak film equipment used to call it 'Aperture correction'. -Les

January 10th, 2004, 05:22 PM	#12
James Ball Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Sulphur, LA Posts: 61	IMHO not a real comparison Can you put them both in manual mode and then do a comparison, no sharpening, 1/4 scale, 1/2 scale sharpening. The shot you chose has a range of shadow valuess it would be nice if there were some range of whites. A lot of cameras also have sharpening just for red. I could also provide you with an 8X10 grayscale and resolution chart. The ringing is definately due to edge enhancement but this parameter should be be controllable. I have some nice cameras but I'm looking at getting one of the HDs

January 10th, 2004, 06:18 PM	#13
Diu Hai New Boot Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 19	it is obvious the grab of hd1 is wider than the hd10, did you shoot at different resolution?and what happened to that thingy on the left of the stop sign? it is behind the sign on hd1, and jump over to the front on hd10? if you want to compare, compare on the same setting.

January 10th, 2004, 10:52 PM	#14
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	James - I would suggest you read up on these cameras features. You are demmanding things that are not possible. Diu - "if you want to compare, compare on the same setting" He did, both in auto mode. Ken __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

January 11th, 2004, 11:52 PM	#15
James Ball Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Sulphur, LA Posts: 61	you're right No manual mode. Doesn't seem possible, sorry, dumb rich kids question. i've never owned a camera that didn't cost $2000 or more. I'm just catching up and seeing that many are disappointed in this shortcoming especially on the "pro" model.