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Old June 12th, 2004, 05:57 PM   #1
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Help: DLPs, DVI, and 16:9 1280x720P?

I am using a dual G5 with FCP HD 4.5. I have a DVX 100 with a 16x9 anamorphic adaptor and a JVC HD10u. I have a Sanyo PLC-XU50 for business presentations which works as a WXGA moniter via DVI (but the color and contrast are poor for video work). I just got the LumiereHD software.

I have been following the DLP (Digital Light Projector) market as I want to buy a DLP for large screen projection of my HD videos.via DVI and use Geffen's DVI switcher to switch between FCP HD, DVD, and satellite HD.

Which DLPs support 19:9 1280x720P from FCP HD via DVI?
I've seen posts from the user reviews section of www.projectorcentral.com indicating that the following DLP projectors don't work:

Sony VPL-HS20
BenQ PB700 ("maximum PC resolution is 1024x768 instead of 1280x768")

Unknown projectors:
InFocus ScreenPlay 7200
Epson PowerLite Cinema 500

Apparently work:
Sanyo PLV Z2

The 30 fps 720P Quicktime playback of the HD 10u via the Sanyo PLC-XU50 shows apparent artifacts "jagged edges" when panning across vertical edges related to frame-rate mismatch. The "jagged edges" are not present when stepping frame-by-frame through the clip.

Does Geffen's DVI switcher work? What about HDMI ports?

Can any of you clarify these three issues? Are there any "1280x720" DLPs which work via DVI? I am particularly interested in the Epson PowerLite Cinema 500.
I'd like to see a user-approved list of DLPs for NLEs.
Thanks,
Frank
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Old June 13th, 2004, 03:43 PM   #2
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Are you looking for a monitor, right, to use with your NLE?

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Old June 14th, 2004, 05:17 AM   #3
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If you are asking if DLP's can be used as a computer monitor I believe the answer is yes, but, they may limit resolution to 640x480 & not 1280x720. A number of new DLP's are in the works for late summer & fall that will offer better contrast levels & more features. Do some research before you buy!

Another note; I see that you have both DVX100 & HD10u. I have a DVX100 & have been looking at a HD10u. Could you give me your thoughts in terms of light sensitivity, editing...overall PQ?
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Old June 14th, 2004, 06:48 AM   #4
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George,

do me a favor and go here for your HD10 questions:

www.hdvinfo.net

If that doesn't fully help, ask the question in a new thread. That way this topic stays on topic! :-)

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Old June 15th, 2004, 07:23 AM   #5
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Thanks Heath and George for replying,

Off topic:
George, the DVX100 and HD10u are both fine prosumer camcorders with inherent limitations and benefits. We work around those as best we can. The HD10u has HD resolution but requires more controlled lighting and has some chroma noise. I don't have enough experience yet with locking the HD10u exposure via the partial manual exposure modes or using ND filters.
Chroma noise can be dealt with by good lighting and there are now chroma noise filters for both the PC and Mac. This forum has great suggestions for working around the limitations of, and getting the most out of, the HD10u. Further comments on this should go to a different thread but all of these questions have already been covered in detail in these forums.

On topic:
1. Yes, I want to use a 1280x720P DLP as a primary monitor via DVI/HDMI. I don't want to buy the wrong DLP at $1800.00-$7000.00. I got no response from the Apple FCP Pro forum on this topic but I saw a thread from an unhappy Sony VPL-HS20 owner who felt that that DLP was useless as a HD monitor. Apparently, when analog RGB was used to connect, resolution was limited to 1024x728 (not Hi Def) and when HDMI was used, colors were inverted.

Quotes from www.projectorcentral.com user reviews on the Sony HS20:

"This device is being recognized as 1024x768 flat panel display only so left and right column is being unused. At this point it is no better than my Mitsu X70U XGA projector as a PC display. Sony tech support seems to be clueless and says you can get wide display in HD mode only. I used ATI's HDTV adapter to force the pc display in wide mode but the pc display quality is unacceptable ( too dim, not as clear as dvi input, overscan problem )
I heard that Sanyo Z2 has no problem in displaying wxga pc. I should have gotten Sanyo!!"

"One of the reasons I purchased the HS20 was to take advantage of the two separate digital ports provided. I originally planned to have my Bravo D1 DVD player connect to the HS20 via DVI and the Samsung HD receiver to connect via HDMI. I discovered that the HDMI port won't work at 720p because it completely reverses the color fields (grass is red, skin-flesh is blue, sky is green, etc.). This problem does not exist when using the DVI port. So now I have to purchase a DVI switchbox so that both HD and DVD can work at 720p. The HDMI connection does show HD images correctly at 1080i however, so maybe if I get a larger screen I can go back to using both ports."

"I bought this to project HD. That's all. I used the component input and put in a true HD uncompressed signal. And guess what? It doesn't show you the whole image. I have a G5/Cinewave/HD editing rig that outputs 1920x1080 HD via an HD-SDI signal. But the sony cuts off a little of the image - top and bottom, left and right. About...oh...15% of the image. if I have titles that take up the whole frame - it cuts off the far right and far left letters. Why can't it take a signal and show the whole thing? Maybe if I used the DVI input? Well, I dropped a thousands bucks for a DoReMi HD-SDI to DVI convertor - figuring if I kept it all in the digital doman I would see the whole enchilada. Not so. Still cut it off.
So I try to change the DVI inputs, but that's nearly impossible. See, you have to shut down the DVI signal, shut it off, to change the input on the VPL-HS20. Why can't I change it on the fly? Why can't I get rid of that weird matting/overscan? Why isn't there a manual adjustment? This is consumer gear and it is shameful that it can't projector a real HD image.
I haven't tried it with HDTV because the compression looks so bad (all that noise in the BG) is too annoying. Now I'm stuck with this stupid projector - which - looks pretty great except for only PART of the image. "


The scenario is this. First, I will find a DLP which works properly for 1280x720P via DVI/HDMI for NLE. Second, in my entertainment room, I will get a second Mac for 1280x720P playback of final edits (QuickTime Pro with PhotoJPEG until something similar to WMV9 matures for the Mac). I would use Geffens DVI switcher to route different sources (Mac, DVD player, HD satellite) to the DLP.

The current problems:
1. There are three ways to connect a DLP to a computer. First is via DVI/HDMI. Second is via analog RGB including VGA, VESA, SVGA, XGA, and WXGA formats. Third is to buy a more powerful graphics card for the computer with HiDef component video outs and connect that to the HiDef component video inputs of the DLP. For example, the Epson PowerLite Cinema 500 has an HDMI digital input as well as two (input A and input B) hi def component video analog inputs (from Epson's website PDF documentation). Epson shows an example VGA to component video adaptor cable to connect a computer's VGA output to input A. In this analog RGB to component video in mode, the Cinema 500 resolution is limited to XGA (1024x728) resolution which is not HiDef. In contrast, the Sanyo PLC-XU50 for business presentations does support higher WXGA resolutions (for example 1280x1024 120Hz) via its analog inputs. When the analog inputs are used, frame-rate mismatch problems occur producing apparent jagged edge artifacts which are not the fault of the HD10u and which are not present when stepping through the footage frame-by-frame.

2. Using DVI/HDMI should avoid an unnecessary D/A-A/D conversion.

3. Graphics cards like the Radeon 9600 Pro Power Mac G5 Edition have two video outputs. One is DVI-I. One is ADC. I've been using the ADC for an Apple 19"? flat panel. I connected the PLC-XU50 via the DVI-I but then via a DVI-VGA adaptor cable. I have an extra DVI-I to DVI-I cable coming. ATIs website indicates that the Radeon 9600 Pro Power Mac G5 Edition has "Dual 165MHz TMDS transmitters (DVI 1.0 compliant)" and "Top quality DVD and DTV/HDTV decode with low CPU overhead". The Radeon 9800 Pro Mac Special Edition has "Top quality DVD and all-format DTV/ HDTV decode with low CPU overhead". I see no need to get a HiDef analog out card when DVI/HDMI is available PROVIDED THAT 1280x720P 30 fps is supported

4. What I want remains:
1:1 pixel mapping 1280x720P via DVI from a Mac to a DLP with no frame-rate mismatch problems using HD10u footage with Quicktime Pro/PhotoJPEG (or other) compression. 1280x720P digital out to 1280x720P digital in. No extra A/D-D/A conversions.

To use Geffen's DVI switcher to route different HiDef or DVD inputs (Mac, Bravo, HiDef satellite, DVD, PC WMP9, etc) to a Home Theater 1280x720P DLP.

5. Is there a Mac software/hardware problem in outputting a 1280x720P 30 fps signal via DVI? How do Quicktime Pro, FCP, and the Radeon 9600/9800 handle 1280x720P 30 fps when connected to a 1280x720P 30 home theater DLP via DVI/HDMI?

6. A user-approved list of DLPs from forum members using the HD10u with DLPs via DVI could help myself and others from making a costly mistake like that experienced by the unhappy Sony VPL-HS20 owner described above.


I hope this clarifies the problem. I'll update more as I learn more.
Thanks
Frank
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Old June 16th, 2004, 11:48 AM   #6
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My HT viewing of HD10 material is on a Samsung HLN5065W 50" RP DLP. The chip is native 1280 x 720, so there's no conversion. I also have a JVC DVHS which makes a straight digital copy. I had been watching the component output from the DVHS and the camcorder (identical). I then acquired a Samsung SIR-T 165 tuner with firewire AND DVI out. I can now view the DVHS via firewire to the tuner, then DVI to the TV. The improvement was immediately noticeable. The image is sharper to the eye, and a test pattern showed about a hundred lines better horizontal resolution. Vertical was about 50 lines better. It's the only way I watch it now!

While I'm not totally on top of the front projector market, I can't believe somebody is not putting that chip in a FP. AVS forum is a good place for research. Good luck!
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Old June 16th, 2004, 09:45 PM   #7
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Thanks David for responding,
Your solution requires copying back to a DVHS tape deck and then to your tuner before routing to your HiDef RP TV. For real-time monitoring and direct HiDef 1280x720P playback from a Mac or PC to a HiDef Rear or Front projector my proposed setup eliminates the DVHS tape deck and the tuner.
I received the Epson PowerLite Cinema 500 today. It is impressive when playing back a standard DVD via component video out from a progressive DVD player (a Pioneer DV47A). The Sting DVD "all this time" is a great reference disk for standard definition source signal with well saturated colors and an extremely wide range of colors with lots of shadow detail. If you like Sting at all, you really should see this DVD for beatiful live, but highly controlled, video work.

The DVI-HDMI adaptors won't arrive until Friday so I can't give you a final report yet. I expect the limiting factor will be the ATI Radeon 9600 Pro Mac G5 edition graphics card as I doubt it supports 1280x720P 30 fps via its DVI output. I sent a query to ATI regarding this question this morning. I only received an automated response so far. Hopefully they will respond.

Does anyone know of Mac or PC graphics cards which support 1280x720P 30fps via a DVI or HDMI output? Have you plugged that directly in to a 1280x720P 30 fps FP or RP display?
Thanks
Frank
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Old June 17th, 2004, 09:24 AM   #8
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Frank,

I do have a Asus V9520 Video Suite card. (PC) It uses the Invidia FX5200 processor (with a fan even), and has dual DVI outputs which can be adapted to VGA. It also has composite and S-video ins and outs, 128MB DDR, and supports DirectX 9.0 and OpenGL. I haven't tried all the features yet, but it definitely supports 1280x720. It's about $100 at Newegg. Seems like a lot of board for the money!
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Old June 18th, 2004, 11:39 PM   #9
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Thanks again David,
Fortunately the new setup works as hoped. From a dual 2 Gz G5 Mac with a Radeon 9600 Pro G5 Mac Edition the Epson Powerlite Cinema 500 is recognized as a 1280x720 60 Hz RGB monitor when connected via a 23 foot DVI cable from the 9600 graphics to a DVI-HDMI adaptor and then a 6 HDMI cable to the Cinema 500.

The previous frame rate mismatch problems have dissappeared (60 Hx is twice the 30 fps HD10u frame rate; it appears that each frame is played twice and then refreshed). The test footage from the HD10u looks very good. I'll need to work out the partial manual exposure control issues using the comments from this forum. The OIS is not very good. Tripod shooting or a Glidecam type system for mobile shooting would be better.

Regarding your system, David, I checked on the JVC DVHS decks. They do not have DVI outs. While the HiDef component video outs are excellent, I wanted to avoid the extra DA/AD conversion.

I'll have other questions for the forum in other threads.

We have 2 systems so far for approval. Forum users may duplicate and add to this list. I have no way of confirming any of the apparent problems listed above for other systems or DLPs.

Approved list for Hi Def 1280x720P DLP (front or rear) editing of HD10u footage via DVI/HDMI:

1. PowerMac G5 Dual 2 GHz, Final Cut Pro HD/LumiereHD, ATI Radeon 9600 Pro Mac G5 edition graphics card (one ADC out for a Mac flat panel and one DVI out). 23 foot DVI cable. DVI/HDMI adaptor. 6 foot HDMI cable. Optional Geffen 4 channel DVI switcher. Epson Powerlite Cinema 500 (highly recommended for home theater use and editing).

2. PC. Asus V9520 Video Suite card. The Asus uses the Invidia FX5200 processor (with a fan even), and has dual DVI outputs which can be adapted to VGA. It also has composite and S-video ins and outs, 128MB DDR, and supports DirectX 9.0 and OpenGL. It definitely supports 1280x720. Samsung HLN5065W 50" RP DLP.

Thanks
Frank
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