Should I still use HD tapes for DV?

Diogo Athouguia · January 30th, 2008, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howard Flagler

Why not Sony? What if I already did?...Is Sony bad?

Sony is not bad, they just use a different kind of lubricant that should not be mixed with other brands. If you use Sony use only Sony. If you read the JVCs manual you'll find what tapes you should use... of course JVC is one of the recomended brands. I always use JVC, Pana or Fuji and I once used 2 pro Sony tapes because the producer forgot my request. On the second sony tape the cleaning heads message was displayed on the viewfinder, I used the cleaning tape but over time the message was still displaying more often than it should. I had to send the camera for a professional head cleaning.

like Marc says, it is important to avoid recycling tapes. They lose their lubricant properties and you may lose footage and damage the camera's heads.

Steve Oakley · January 31st, 2008, 12:11 AM

for what its worth, the JVC tapes seem to be made by Maxell. Go read the Specs at B&H and the "diamond like coating". I just used some Maxell consumer grade tapes and they ran fine. Normally I try to use Panasonic AMQ, or if I have to PQ. I can say for a fact that HDV is more demanding then DV. Recording DV seems to be much less picky, even though its the same number of bits going down to tape.

FWIW, sony tape is the brand thats been NOTHING but trouble. I won't use it, sheds like crazy in my machines, even my DSR-20! too many horror stories to even consider it. on a shoot a few months back where the producer showed up with a case of sony tape, I refused to accept any responsibility for recording problems as the EIC.

realistically, does $5 vs $8 vs $12 for a DV _really_ matter ? No. Unless you are talking about shooting endless family movies. in a pro situation, its the cheapest thing on the shoot. A gallon of gas (US) is $3+. so if you mess up a shoot due to cheap tape, the money you saved on the tape won't even pay for the gas to get you to the re-shoot ( unless its literally around the block ! ) never mind go buy some new tape locally. then again, who cares about that, its lost reputation more then anything else. If a messed up reputation isn't worth a $5 price of tape difference, then maybe you are in the wrong business. if you use a high grade tape, no one can argue you didn't do the right thing. if you use a cheap tape and it messes up, you'll be branded as the cheapskate the messed up a shoot to save $5, maybe less. you can also count on not getting work from that client again... so now what have you saved ?

its just so not worth it to use cheap tape when you look at the costs of if it messes up.

another thought. last time I priced it out, 35mm is about $75/minute to shoot for film / process / single light. 1 11min roll is $750, or about $4090/hr. Now how cheap is a $12 60 HDV tape ?

Allan Coy · January 31st, 2008, 12:29 AM

Hey Alex swith to the Panasonic AY-DVM83PQ stock, we have been running it for 2yrs on a full time ENG crew with no probs. SD and HDV, our JVC101e is getting hammered and still delivering magic pic's. Its cheaper than the JVC stock.

Allan

Tom Hardwick · January 31st, 2008, 02:12 AM

All good advice - buy the best you can afford, be it mics, cameras, lenses, tripods and of course tape. But remember that a Mini DV tape is made up of 28 components, lots of them very tight tolerance injection mouldings. There's doors, hinges, pins, rollers, springs - oh, and 75 metres of beautiful splice-free tape. It's all been assembled, packaged, boxed and transported.

To expect every one of them to be perfect for just $12 is asking a lot - and the fact that we get so few dropouts is nothing short of amazing.

There’s still an impression out there that used tapes are somehow inferior to new ones. Being so cheap suggests that there’s some pretty expensive highly automated machinery at work, and that there’s precious little in the way of human inspection being carried out. Which is why I say that if you’ve used a tape and know it to be good, that’s the same as using your microphone and knowing it to be good.

So I’m not afraid to reuse my tapes over and over again, and these days they’re being put to quite a test – recording HDV. But as I say, there’s still a hard core of people who equate used tape to mean inferior tape, and they tend to work under the impression that as it’s so cheap, then you should always use new. In fact tape is probably at it smoothest and best after it’s been burnished by the spinning heads a couple of times, that will have knocked off all the high spots and imperfections.

It's odd that most people instinctively think of re-recording a tape as "re-using" it but see no likely problem with playing it back repeatedly -- or even running it back and forth over the heads for log-and-capture. It’s all tape re-use.

For really important projects I would push the boat out and step up a notch from the everyday Premium grade to the Sony Excellence, the professional grade DVCAM or tape labelled for HDV.

Many claim there is no difference between grades, but I’m a firm believer in that you get what you pay for, and more expensive tape will have been slit from the centre of the wide ribbon and may well have had further polishing operations to ensure the lowest possible dropout levels. For HDV this is really important, as the same dropout will affect far more frames than if you had been shooting in standard definition.

tom.

Allan Coy · January 31st, 2008, 05:44 AM

I agree Tom, but i can purchase a samsung LCD panel with all the same electronic components of a sony for a cheaper price, samsung buy there panel from the sony factory. So they both have the same LCD panel in them, but carrry a different price. Why is this... The badge on the front. A more expensive product doesn't always mean you get a better result.

Al

Diogo Athouguia · January 31st, 2008, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Hardwick

There’s still an impression out there that used tapes are somehow inferior to new ones. Being so cheap suggests that there’s some pretty expensive highly automated machinery at work, and that there’s precious little in the way of human inspection being carried out. Which is why I say that if you’ve used a tape and know it to be good, that’s the same as using your microphone and knowing it to be good.

Impression or not, I'm editing a making of right now and it has some drop outs. I recorded it on used tapes and I'm sure that if they were new this wouldn't happen. Maybe better tapes can handle more recordings than these cheap ones, anyway I prefer to use new cheap tapes for DV than recording 3 or more times on expensive tapes. I have a HD101 and a HD200, drop outs occur on both cameras with reused or cheap tapes for HDV.

Howard Flagler · February 4th, 2008, 07:32 AM

So...is his true of all Sony tapes no matter what grade? I m curious to know if this is a fact or a generalization. How about if you use tape stock such as Sony's DVM-63HD. Would this be any better?

Ever since I bought my first DV camcorder (Sony's DVX1000) all i have used has been Sony tapes. I have never ever had any issues. Maybe one little hit because of head being clogged...but that is it (not bad for a 10 year span!). For the 4 year lifespan of my DVX100A, I have only used Sony tapes and I have never...ever had one hit or glitch.

Being new to the HDV world, I need to understand if there is an issue with video heads made by certain manufacturers not working properly with certain types of tapes. I had bought over 80 DVM-63HD HD DVC tapes and have only used one on the GY-HD100 for less than 5 minutes to test the camera. Are these facts or just shooter preferences?

Steve Oakley · February 4th, 2008, 11:58 AM

if all you have ever run is sony tapes thru your camera, you'll probably be ok. it seems to be that sony is the oddball tape formulation compared to everyone else, but what else is new about sony. sony pro grade tapes are better then the consumer grade. if you want to change brands, run a head cleaner for 10 secs, then, personally, I'd run a 1hr tape of the new brand thru at least once to be sure the tape path has been wiped clean.

I got a shoot done on sony consumer tapes and all the tapes shed like crazy in my DSR-20 deck. finally after playing them thru about 6 times, I was finally able to get a clean pass. it was a real pain. then you run the possiblity of cross contaminating tapes.

for me, I've been using hundreds of PQ and AMQ, and now I've been trying Maxell and all has been good. if you check out the tape forum, most of the horror stories there, and on this forum involve Sony tape.

I did sell my DSR-20 off about 6 months ago. that deck would record to any tape you put in including DVCpro ! the BR-HD50 won't record or PB a DVCpro tape, even if recorded in standard DV mode.

Howard Flagler · February 4th, 2008, 12:01 PM

thanks Steve...good information...off to Panasonic tapes I go!

Adriano Apefos · February 12th, 2008, 03:33 PM

I used HV20 to do some Apefos 35mm adapter footage and used a Tape Rewinder too. I saw lots of image freezing and sound disapearing in the footage. I used three tapes and the problem was in all. Some of this dropouts was recorded and I saw them everytime I rewind the tape and see again. Some image freezing disapear when I rewind the tape. So I concluded some dropouts was happening in playback.

Sudenly I had the Idea of rewind the tape in the camcorder and stop using the tape rewinder. The playback dropouts disapear. So I rewind the tape in camcorder and recorded again and rewind the tape in camcorder to do the playback. All the dropouts disapear. So I concluded the problem was the tape rewinder. So if you get dropouts (image freezing) do fast forward and rewind the tape in the camcorder and your new recording will be free of dopouts.

Tom Hardwick · February 13th, 2008, 02:14 AM

Good recommendation Adriano. Camcorder rewind speeds are generally pretty gentle and it sounds like your rewinder was giving you tape alignment problems on replay, so stick to the camera. Most these days have gentle acceleration and deceleration curves at tape end, too.

tom.

Brian Luce · February 13th, 2008, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Oakley

its just so not worth it to use cheap tape when you look at the costs of if it messes up.

I shot some footage over the weekend with a cheap Panasonic tape ME dvm60. Dropouts galore. about 60% of the shots not usable.
Bought a $9 panasonic HDV ay dvm63amq and no dropouts after a few minutes of testing today model ay-dvm63amq. It's all the difference in the world.

Tup Wright · February 13th, 2008, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Luce

I shot some footage over the weekend with a cheap Panasonic tape ME dvm60. Dropouts galore. about 60% of the shots not usable.
Bought a $9 panasonic HDV ay dvm63amq and no dropouts after a few minutes of testing today model ay-dvm63amq. It's all the difference in the world.

I read in these forums someone saying not to use the 60min tapes, but use a 63 minute and you will not have problems. I've been using the panasonic AY-DVM63PQ for 9 months now with no dropouts ($5). I'm pretty satisfied with these guys. I'm sure the AMQ are even better. I kinda remember someone from JVC posting something about using a "dry" stock in these cameras and that is why I switched from Sony to the Panasonic tape.

Giuseppe Pugliese · February 15th, 2008, 07:13 AM

I have been using panasonic pro AY-DVM63PQ tapes for over 6 years, they are the best in my opinion. They dont use a wet lubricant, resulting in less gunk on the heads. they arent that expensive when you buy in bulk.

ive noticed that "prosumer" cameras have more drop outs than consumer, or professional cameras. I truly believe that its just as much of a problem with the camera as well as the tape.

Tapes are made differently, multi layered and different chemicals. I believe that the best tapes are the ones that use the least amount of lube and the most highly bonded top layer.

just my 2 bits.

January 31st, 2008, 12:29 AM	#18
Allan Coy Regular Crew Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sydney New South Wales Posts: 34	If your looking to save a buck Hey Alex swith to the Panasonic AY-DVM83PQ stock, we have been running it for 2yrs on a full time ENG crew with no probs. SD and HDV, our JVC101e is getting hammered and still delivering magic pic's. Its cheaper than the JVC stock. Allan

February 12th, 2008, 03:33 PM	#25
Adriano Apefos Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belo Horizonte BRAZIL Posts: 154	drop out is a fast forward rewind problem I used HV20 to do some Apefos 35mm adapter footage and used a Tape Rewinder too. I saw lots of image freezing and sound disapearing in the footage. I used three tapes and the problem was in all. Some of this dropouts was recorded and I saw them everytime I rewind the tape and see again. Some image freezing disapear when I rewind the tape. So I concluded some dropouts was happening in playback. Sudenly I had the Idea of rewind the tape in the camcorder and stop using the tape rewinder. The playback dropouts disapear. So I rewind the tape in camcorder and recorded again and rewind the tape in camcorder to do the playback. All the dropouts disapear. So I concluded the problem was the tape rewinder. So if you get dropouts (image freezing) do fast forward and rewind the tape in the camcorder and your new recording will be free of dopouts.

January 31st, 2008, 12:11 AM	#17
Steve Oakley Trustee Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: United States Posts: 1,158	for what its worth, the JVC tapes seem to be made by Maxell. Go read the Specs at B&H and the "diamond like coating". I just used some Maxell consumer grade tapes and they ran fine. Normally I try to use Panasonic AMQ, or if I have to PQ. I can say for a fact that HDV is more demanding then DV. Recording DV seems to be much less picky, even though its the same number of bits going down to tape. FWIW, sony tape is the brand thats been NOTHING but trouble. I won't use it, sheds like crazy in my machines, even my DSR-20! too many horror stories to even consider it. on a shoot a few months back where the producer showed up with a case of sony tape, I refused to accept any responsibility for recording problems as the EIC. realistically, does $5 vs $8 vs $12 for a DV _really_ matter ? No. Unless you are talking about shooting endless family movies. in a pro situation, its the cheapest thing on the shoot. A gallon of gas (US) is $3+. so if you mess up a shoot due to cheap tape, the money you saved on the tape won't even pay for the gas to get you to the re-shoot ( unless its literally around the block ! ) never mind go buy some new tape locally. then again, who cares about that, its lost reputation more then anything else. If a messed up reputation isn't worth a $5 price of tape difference, then maybe you are in the wrong business. if you use a high grade tape, no one can argue you didn't do the right thing. if you use a cheap tape and it messes up, you'll be branded as the cheapskate the messed up a shoot to save $5, maybe less. you can also count on not getting work from that client again... so now what have you saved ? its just so not worth it to use cheap tape when you look at the costs of if it messes up. another thought. last time I priced it out, 35mm is about $75/minute to shoot for film / process / single light. 1 11min roll is $750, or about $4090/hr. Now how cheap is a $12 60 HDV tape ?

January 31st, 2008, 02:12 AM	#19
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	All good advice - buy the best you can afford, be it mics, cameras, lenses, tripods and of course tape. But remember that a Mini DV tape is made up of 28 components, lots of them very tight tolerance injection mouldings. There's doors, hinges, pins, rollers, springs - oh, and 75 metres of beautiful splice-free tape. It's all been assembled, packaged, boxed and transported. To expect every one of them to be perfect for just $12 is asking a lot - and the fact that we get so few dropouts is nothing short of amazing. There’s still an impression out there that used tapes are somehow inferior to new ones. Being so cheap suggests that there’s some pretty expensive highly automated machinery at work, and that there’s precious little in the way of human inspection being carried out. Which is why I say that if you’ve used a tape and know it to be good, that’s the same as using your microphone and knowing it to be good. So I’m not afraid to reuse my tapes over and over again, and these days they’re being put to quite a test – recording HDV. But as I say, there’s still a hard core of people who equate used tape to mean inferior tape, and they tend to work under the impression that as it’s so cheap, then you should always use new. In fact tape is probably at it smoothest and best after it’s been burnished by the spinning heads a couple of times, that will have knocked off all the high spots and imperfections. It's odd that most people instinctively think of re-recording a tape as "re-using" it but see no likely problem with playing it back repeatedly -- or even running it back and forth over the heads for log-and-capture. It’s all tape re-use. For really important projects I would push the boat out and step up a notch from the everyday Premium grade to the Sony Excellence, the professional grade DVCAM or tape labelled for HDV. Many claim there is no difference between grades, but I’m a firm believer in that you get what you pay for, and more expensive tape will have been slit from the centre of the wide ribbon and may well have had further polishing operations to ensure the lowest possible dropout levels. For HDV this is really important, as the same dropout will affect far more frames than if you had been shooting in standard definition. tom.

January 31st, 2008, 05:44 AM	#20
Allan Coy Regular Crew Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sydney New South Wales Posts: 34	I agree Tom, but i can purchase a samsung LCD panel with all the same electronic components of a sony for a cheaper price, samsung buy there panel from the sony factory. So they both have the same LCD panel in them, but carrry a different price. Why is this... The badge on the front. A more expensive product doesn't always mean you get a better result. Al

February 4th, 2008, 07:32 AM	#22
Howard Flagler New Boot Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Venice, Florida Posts: 7	So...is his true of all Sony tapes no matter what grade? I m curious to know if this is a fact or a generalization. How about if you use tape stock such as Sony's DVM-63HD. Would this be any better? Ever since I bought my first DV camcorder (Sony's DVX1000) all i have used has been Sony tapes. I have never ever had any issues. Maybe one little hit because of head being clogged...but that is it (not bad for a 10 year span!). For the 4 year lifespan of my DVX100A, I have only used Sony tapes and I have never...ever had one hit or glitch. Being new to the HDV world, I need to understand if there is an issue with video heads made by certain manufacturers not working properly with certain types of tapes. I had bought over 80 DVM-63HD HD DVC tapes and have only used one on the GY-HD100 for less than 5 minutes to test the camera. Are these facts or just shooter preferences?

February 4th, 2008, 11:58 AM	#23
Steve Oakley Trustee Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: United States Posts: 1,158	if all you have ever run is sony tapes thru your camera, you'll probably be ok. it seems to be that sony is the oddball tape formulation compared to everyone else, but what else is new about sony. sony pro grade tapes are better then the consumer grade. if you want to change brands, run a head cleaner for 10 secs, then, personally, I'd run a 1hr tape of the new brand thru at least once to be sure the tape path has been wiped clean. I got a shoot done on sony consumer tapes and all the tapes shed like crazy in my DSR-20 deck. finally after playing them thru about 6 times, I was finally able to get a clean pass. it was a real pain. then you run the possiblity of cross contaminating tapes. for me, I've been using hundreds of PQ and AMQ, and now I've been trying Maxell and all has been good. if you check out the tape forum, most of the horror stories there, and on this forum involve Sony tape. I did sell my DSR-20 off about 6 months ago. that deck would record to any tape you put in including DVCpro ! the BR-HD50 won't record or PB a DVCpro tape, even if recorded in standard DV mode.

February 4th, 2008, 12:01 PM	#24
Howard Flagler New Boot Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Venice, Florida Posts: 7	thanks Steve...good information...off to Panasonic tapes I go!

February 13th, 2008, 02:14 AM	#26
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	Good recommendation Adriano. Camcorder rewind speeds are generally pretty gentle and it sounds like your rewinder was giving you tape alignment problems on replay, so stick to the camera. Most these days have gentle acceleration and deceleration curves at tape end, too. tom.

February 15th, 2008, 07:13 AM	#29
Giuseppe Pugliese Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: New York Posts: 392	I have been using panasonic pro AY-DVM63PQ tapes for over 6 years, they are the best in my opinion. They dont use a wet lubricant, resulting in less gunk on the heads. they arent that expensive when you buy in bulk. ive noticed that "prosumer" cameras have more drop outs than consumer, or professional cameras. I truly believe that its just as much of a problem with the camera as well as the tape. Tapes are made differently, multi layered and different chemicals. I believe that the best tapes are the ones that use the least amount of lube and the most highly bonded top layer. just my 2 bits.