Shooting 1/30th shutter at DVinfo.net

Scott Jaco · September 3rd, 2007, 10:05 AM

Just got done reviewing a wedding I shot almost entirely at night. I tried the 1/30 shutter speed for the first time. I record in HDV 30p mode. It really makes a big difference with low light performance.

The wedding was entirely outdoors with no ambient lighting.

I was really worried about shooting 1/30th since the stock preset is 1/60th.

There was almost no image smear. I think I'll be shooting this way from now on. I still prefer 1/60th when lighting permits but dropping the shutter speed seems to work great when shooting in 30p mode!

Eric Gulbransen · September 3rd, 2007, 10:36 AM

Glad that worked out for you Scott. Maybe you could post a clip? I've got a wedding this Friday, outdoors, at night as well..

Eric Darling · September 3rd, 2007, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Jaco

I was really worried about shooting 1/30th since the stock preset is 1/60th.

There was almost no image smear. I think I'll be shooting this way from now on. I still prefer 1/60th when lighting permits but dropping the shutter speed seems to work great when shooting in 30p mode!

That's been my experience, too. I use the HD-100, so no 60fps mode... I figure if the camera is resolving 30 fps progressively, shooting with a 1/30 shutter shouldn't matter. Of course, if you're in DV-I mode, I would imagine it would make a difference, since that's 60i.

Laszlo Horvath · September 3rd, 2007, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Jaco

Just got done reviewing a wedding I shot almost entirely at night. I tried the 1/30 shutter speed for the first time. I record in HDV 30p mode. It really makes a big difference with low light performance.

The wedding was entirely outdoors with no ambient lighting.

I was really worried about shooting 1/30th since the stock preset is 1/60th.

There was almost no image smear. I think I'll be shooting this way from now on. I still prefer 1/60th when lighting permits but dropping the shutter speed seems to work great when shooting in 30p mode!

I use two HD100 and now I just purchased another HD110 Since day one I shoot HD30 with 30 shutter speed inside. I never had any lighting problem. On my website you can download (bottom of the main page -view our High Defenition demo-) a two minutes HD30 footage was recorded 30 shutter speed. (Take about 2 minutes to download) This was my first ever HD wedding two years ago September 2005
www.star-litevideo.com

Laszlo

Scott Jaco · September 4th, 2007, 02:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric Darling

I figure if the camera is resolving 30 fps progressively, shooting with a 1/30 shutter shouldn't matter.

Don't forget, the HD100 is a 60p camera (via component analog output) which would explain the 1/60th stock preset.

Greg Boston · September 4th, 2007, 08:21 AM

Shooting 30P with 1/30 shutter can buy you some low light sensitivity. But motion blur can become a problem with the slower shutter speed. This will be most obvious on the long end of the lens where subject movement is magnified. Ironically, close up work is where you need the extra sensitivity to compensate for the light loss due to zooming in.

-gb-

Jon Jaschob · September 4th, 2007, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laszlo Horvath

I use two HD100 and now I just purchased another HD110 Since day one I shoot HD30 with 30 shutter speed inside. I never had any lighting problem. On my website you can download (bottom of the main page -view our High Defenition demo-) a two minutes HD30 footage was recorded 30 shutter speed. (Take about 2 minutes to download) This was my first ever HD wedding two years ago September 2005
www.star-litevideo.com

Laszlo

This footage looks great, do you remember your lens and camera settings?
I don't see any issues with motion blur.
Thanks,
Jon

Laszlo Horvath · September 4th, 2007, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Jaschob

This footage looks great, do you remember your lens and camera settings?
I don't see any issues with motion blur.
Thanks,
Jon

The camera just arrived a week before this wedding.. That time I didn't know any trick of this camera, so everything was factory setup for HD30 recording. The lens was a stock 16x. The church was a bit dark, so we decide to try the 30 shutter speed. We can risk with this, because we recorded the wedding with two Sony DSR-300a so this camera was there only for try it in real wedding, in real different situations. The footages was so nice, the couple ask me to edit for them as a single camera footage for extra money. I didn't charged them for that DVD.

About the motion blur, I never see one, but much more experienced filmmakers said on this Forum we must use 60 shutter speed, but honestly I don't get it. I'm sure they right, but nobody ever really explained the reason, and show me the difference in reality.

Laszlo

Steve Oakley · September 4th, 2007, 10:27 PM

I shoot 1/30th in 30p as standard practice. no problem with motion, and I've shot plenty of stuff moving, jibs, dollies, ect. no problem. I don't know who is telling you that you must shoot at 1/60th because they are wrong. its a matter of style.

Laszlo Horvath · September 4th, 2007, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Oakley

I shoot 1/30th in 30p as standard practice. no problem with motion, and I've shot plenty of stuff moving, jibs, dollies, ect. no problem. I don't know who is telling you that you must shoot at 1/60th because they are wrong. its a matter of style.

Well few "big name" on this Forum.

I hope they say something again about this on going question

Laszlo

Justin Ferar · September 5th, 2007, 11:18 AM

I think the confusion is that you really only NEED to shoot at at least 1/60th if you intend to overcrank, but even that is debatable depending your aesthetic. Otherwise I don't think anyone would go on record as calling it a necessity.

Best.

Dave Beaty · September 6th, 2007, 08:48 PM

I think the opinions about 1/30 or 1/24 shutter have come from the purists who suggest that those shutter speeds are impossible on film cameras.
In that arguement 1/48 or 1/60 sec or 180 degree shutter speeds can be duplicated and anything longer would be a digital camera effect.

Yet, I've found 1/30 shutter speeds look great with the HD-100. Comparing scenes with 1/60 and 1/30 of the same well lit material, the 1/30 looks just slightly softer and really wonderful. After all, most of us are using CRT's, plasmas and LCD's in NTSC to screen our final product. The same may not be true when projecting the material at 24 fps.

So, I say, give it a go and let your eyes be the judge.

Dave B

Bill Ravens · September 6th, 2007, 08:55 PM

There's a phenomenon in physics known as the nyquist frequency. The nyquist frequency is, as applied to a moving shutter camera, a shutter speed twice the frame rate. The reason for wanting to maintain a shutter speed no less than the nyquist frequency is because you begin to suffer motion artifacts at less than the nyquist. If you're not shooting things that move, especially rotating wheels, you shouldn't have a problem.

In practical usage, I'm sure you've seen scenes of wagon wheels, or something like that, that appear to rotate backwards. This is the effect of nyquist, where the camera catches still images of a rotating object and when the stills are reconstructed on a motion display, the wheel appears to turn backwards.

Brian Luce · September 6th, 2007, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Beaty

Yet, I've found 1/30 shutter speeds look great with the HD-100. Comparing scenes with 1/60 and 1/30 of the same well lit material, the 1/30 looks just slightly softer and really wonderful.
Dave B

I'd be interested in elaborating on this subjective assessment. So 1/30th is softer than 1/60th, what other adjectives/descriptive terms can you use? Does it look "Better"?

Others?

Chris L. Culp · September 7th, 2007, 05:33 PM

I have produced several pieces shot in 1/24th and 1/30th due to low light conditions and I won't do it again (unless there are intended undercranking or style reasons).

Any shot with motion will inherently be "softer" because of the extra motion blur. But, if you ask me, it's softer in a bad way that risks making a shot look out of focus and I've noticed it bringing out the HDV compression with this camera a few times. The effect is especially amplified in pans, run & gun situations and any subject with fast motion. Often times in uncontrollably low-light situations the extra exposure to your shot is worth the tradeoff of adding motion blur. But personally for me, I will avoid 1/24 and 1/30 all together.

With that said, it really comes down to what you think looks acceptable, use your own judgment I say. No one will tell you that you can't shoot in 1/30 or 1/24 because this industry by nature is a subjective one.

September 3rd, 2007, 10:05 AM	#1
Scott Jaco Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Sherman Oaks, CA Posts: 471	Shooting 1/30th shutter Just got done reviewing a wedding I shot almost entirely at night. I tried the 1/30 shutter speed for the first time. I record in HDV 30p mode. It really makes a big difference with low light performance. The wedding was entirely outdoors with no ambient lighting. I was really worried about shooting 1/30th since the stock preset is 1/60th. There was almost no image smear. I think I'll be shooting this way from now on. I still prefer 1/60th when lighting permits but dropping the shutter speed seems to work great when shooting in 30p mode!

September 5th, 2007, 11:18 AM	#11
Justin Ferar Major Player Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Larkspur, CA Posts: 378	I think the confusion is that you really only NEED to shoot at at least 1/60th if you intend to overcrank, but even that is debatable depending your aesthetic. Otherwise I don't think anyone would go on record as calling it a necessity. Best. __________________ www.justinferar.com www.weddingsonfilm.com

September 3rd, 2007, 10:36 AM	#2
Eric Gulbransen Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Palo Alto, California Posts: 520	Glad that worked out for you Scott. Maybe you could post a clip? I've got a wedding this Friday, outdoors, at night as well..

September 4th, 2007, 08:21 AM	#6
Greg Boston Wrangler Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: DFW area, TX Posts: 6,117 Images: 1	Shooting 30P with 1/30 shutter can buy you some low light sensitivity. But motion blur can become a problem with the slower shutter speed. This will be most obvious on the long end of the lens where subject movement is magnified. Ironically, close up work is where you need the extra sensitivity to compensate for the light loss due to zooming in. -gb-

September 4th, 2007, 10:27 PM	#9
Steve Oakley Trustee Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: United States Posts: 1,158	I shoot 1/30th in 30p as standard practice. no problem with motion, and I've shot plenty of stuff moving, jibs, dollies, ect. no problem. I don't know who is telling you that you must shoot at 1/60th because they are wrong. its a matter of style.

September 6th, 2007, 08:48 PM	#12
Dave Beaty Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ft. Myers, FL Posts: 240	I think the opinions about 1/30 or 1/24 shutter have come from the purists who suggest that those shutter speeds are impossible on film cameras. In that arguement 1/48 or 1/60 sec or 180 degree shutter speeds can be duplicated and anything longer would be a digital camera effect. Yet, I've found 1/30 shutter speeds look great with the HD-100. Comparing scenes with 1/60 and 1/30 of the same well lit material, the 1/30 looks just slightly softer and really wonderful. After all, most of us are using CRT's, plasmas and LCD's in NTSC to screen our final product. The same may not be true when projecting the material at 24 fps. So, I say, give it a go and let your eyes be the judge. Dave B

September 6th, 2007, 08:55 PM	#13
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	There's a phenomenon in physics known as the nyquist frequency. The nyquist frequency is, as applied to a moving shutter camera, a shutter speed twice the frame rate. The reason for wanting to maintain a shutter speed no less than the nyquist frequency is because you begin to suffer motion artifacts at less than the nyquist. If you're not shooting things that move, especially rotating wheels, you shouldn't have a problem. In practical usage, I'm sure you've seen scenes of wagon wheels, or something like that, that appear to rotate backwards. This is the effect of nyquist, where the camera catches still images of a rotating object and when the stills are reconstructed on a motion display, the wheel appears to turn backwards.

September 7th, 2007, 05:33 PM	#15
Chris L. Culp New Boot Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Temecula, CA Posts: 5	I have produced several pieces shot in 1/24th and 1/30th due to low light conditions and I won't do it again (unless there are intended undercranking or style reasons). Any shot with motion will inherently be "softer" because of the extra motion blur. But, if you ask me, it's softer in a bad way that risks making a shot look out of focus and I've noticed it bringing out the HDV compression with this camera a few times. The effect is especially amplified in pans, run & gun situations and any subject with fast motion. Often times in uncontrollably low-light situations the extra exposure to your shot is worth the tradeoff of adding motion blur. But personally for me, I will avoid 1/24 and 1/30 all together. With that said, it really comes down to what you think looks acceptable, use your own judgment I say. No one will tell you that you can't shoot in 1/30 or 1/24 because this industry by nature is a subjective one.