DTE options for component 720p from HD100? at DVinfo.net

David Fernandes · October 30th, 2007, 10:24 AM

So, I'm wondering what the product options are for going direct-to-disk from the *component* output of an HD100? I already know about the IO HD and the thought of lugging around a big brick AND a laptop AND a hard drive does not seem like a plausible solution for most shooting scenarios I'll be in.

Essentially, I'd like to take advantage of the uncompressed output, but have a device that is truly portable, battery operated and has a built-in hard drive?

Any suggestions?

Thanks!

david.

Chris Hurd · October 30th, 2007, 11:18 AM

"Uncompressed" and "truly portable" tend to be mutually exclusive terms. Not what you wanted to hear perhaps but that is indeed the case. If you stepped up to the HD250, you could take uncompressed HD in digital format from its SDI output (instead of analog from the component jacks) and record directly to something like Convergent Design's Flash XDR recorder (see our Industry News for details). In my opinion that's your best option for avoiding HDV compression.

Bill Ravens · October 30th, 2007, 12:39 PM

My own experience with alternative captures, at least with the HD110, is that you won't get any better than what you get over firewire (compression). The component outs on this cam have already passed thru a D-A engine and DO NOT represent raw CMOS data. While the internal A-D engine coming off the CMOS is 12 bit, I don't know what bit depth the successive D-A engine is for the component out ports. Perhaps the HG250 with it's HD-SDI output doesn't have this conversion scenario and will yield better results.

Jad Meouchy · October 31st, 2007, 01:23 PM

my mileage varies a bit from the last poster

The live output is 4:2:2 720/60p 10bit instead of 4:2:0 720/30p 8bit. And you don't have HDV MPEG2 artifacts. Yes, some D-A occurs, but that's better than D-A-D. In my experience, the uncompressed output looks significantly better. However, it's a lot of data to ingest into any system and is tailored for studio use (i.e. live passthru, not into an nle).

CMOS? Do you mean CCD?

Werner Wesp · November 2nd, 2007, 07:15 AM

Seems to be a bit of overkill, but the Codex Portable seems promising...

Otherwise the Wafian HR-1...

No compression artifacts anymore.

Bill Ravens · November 2nd, 2007, 07:35 AM

Jad...

yeppers...I'm too lazy to remember whether the sensor was CMOS or CCD. There are differences, but, for the purposes of this discussion, it doesn't really matter.

And, indeed, if one has the hardware support for passthru from the HD110 analog component ports, one might experience a slightly improved image. I'm afraid that capability is stratospheric stuff for many people, myself included.

I would be interested to know if the HD110 is capable of the same image quality as the HD250. I.E. comparing the HD250 HD-SDI output to an HD110 analog output, fed into a HD-SDI converter on a short leash. I beleive the JVC ad campaign made a point of the fact that while there is 10bit output at the component port of the HD110, the internal A-D was 12 bit.

John Mitchell · November 4th, 2007, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Ravens

Jad...
I would be interested to know if the HD110 is capable of the same image quality as the HD250. I.E. comparing the HD250 HD-SDI output to an HD110 analog output, fed into a HD-SDI converter on a short leash. I beleive the JVC ad campaign made a point of the fact that while there is 10bit output at the component port of the HD110, the internal A-D was 12 bit.

At a guess the HD-SDI would have to e superior, and the component is better than an HDV recorded signal. Further to Chris's comment you could use a mini component to HD-SDI converter and then the XDR. You won't get uncompressed footage this way, but you will get 100Mb/s 4:2:2 MPEG2@HL. Convergent design makes both boxes.

Federico Aragon · November 9th, 2007, 08:45 PM

If not mistaken:

HD100 - 4:2:0 8bit thru composite
HD250 - 4:2:2 8bit thru HD-SDI

I don't think the JVC can deliver more than 8bit after it passes the DSP, so if you want the most "uncompressed" signal you would definitely have to go with the HD250 (HD-SDI) to get the most out of the color space and bitrate.

Please correct me if I'm wrong...

John Mitchell · November 11th, 2007, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Federico Aragon

If not mistaken:

HD100 - 4:2:0 8bit thru composite
HD250 - 4:2:2 8bit thru HD-SDI

I don't think the JVC can deliver more than 8bit after it passes the DSP, so if you want the most "uncompressed" signal you would definitely have to go with the HD250 (HD-SDI) to get the most out of the color space and bitrate.

Please correct me if I'm wrong...

I'm pretty sure the HD100 is 8 bit 4:2:2 via component (not composite).

John Vincent · November 12th, 2007, 12:45 PM

You're right - 4:2:2 component only (ie - not through the firewire).

john
evilgeniusentertainment.com

Michael Maier · January 23rd, 2008, 05:17 PM

A cheaper alternative would be to use Blackmagic Intensity Pro to capture uncompressed component. You could also use Cineform NeoHD to considerably reduce the storage needed and it would still look like uncompressed.

Eric Ramahatra · January 28th, 2008, 04:08 PM

why doesnt any manufacturer could build a kind if hard wired cineform recorder into a NLE ?
It would have a component, hdmi or hdsdi input, a realtime Cineform compression inside, some kind of 250GB sata disk alfa FireWire output ?!
it would definitely be a hundred time better than HDV, but a hundred time smaller than native HD ?

October 30th, 2007, 10:24 AM	#1
David Fernandes New Boot Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Toronto, ON, Canada Posts: 16	DTE options for component 720p from HD100? So, I'm wondering what the product options are for going direct-to-disk from the component output of an HD100? I already know about the IO HD and the thought of lugging around a big brick AND a laptop AND a hard drive does not seem like a plausible solution for most shooting scenarios I'll be in. Essentially, I'd like to take advantage of the uncompressed output, but have a device that is truly portable, battery operated and has a built-in hard drive? Any suggestions? Thanks! david.

October 30th, 2007, 11:18 AM	#2
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	"Uncompressed" and "truly portable" tend to be mutually exclusive terms. Not what you wanted to hear perhaps but that is indeed the case. If you stepped up to the HD250, you could take uncompressed HD in digital format from its SDI output (instead of analog from the component jacks) and record directly to something like Convergent Design's Flash XDR recorder (see our Industry News for details). In my opinion that's your best option for avoiding HDV compression. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

October 31st, 2007, 01:23 PM	#4
Jad Meouchy Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 663	my mileage varies a bit from the last poster The live output is 4:2:2 720/60p 10bit instead of 4:2:0 720/30p 8bit. And you don't have HDV MPEG2 artifacts. Yes, some D-A occurs, but that's better than D-A-D. In my experience, the uncompressed output looks significantly better. However, it's a lot of data to ingest into any system and is tailored for studio use (i.e. live passthru, not into an nle). CMOS? Do you mean CCD? __________________ software engineer

November 2nd, 2007, 07:15 AM	#5
Werner Wesp Major Player Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Belgium Posts: 497	Seems to be a bit of overkill, but the Codex Portable seems promising... Otherwise the Wafian HR-1... No compression artifacts anymore. __________________ High-Definition Video Consultant - CEO of Delimex NV - http://www.delimex.be gear of choice : http://www.wespgear.com

January 28th, 2008, 04:08 PM	#12
Eric Ramahatra Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Paris Posts: 72	why doesnt any manufacturer could build a kind if hard wired cineform recorder into a NLE ? It would have a component, hdmi or hdsdi input, a realtime Cineform compression inside, some kind of 250GB sata disk alfa FireWire output ?! it would definitely be a hundred time better than HDV, but a hundred time smaller than native HD ? __________________ JVC HD200+redrock M2+1.4 lens+steadicam Flyer mini35 weddings

October 30th, 2007, 12:39 PM	#3
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	My own experience with alternative captures, at least with the HD110, is that you won't get any better than what you get over firewire (compression). The component outs on this cam have already passed thru a D-A engine and DO NOT represent raw CMOS data. While the internal A-D engine coming off the CMOS is 12 bit, I don't know what bit depth the successive D-A engine is for the component out ports. Perhaps the HG250 with it's HD-SDI output doesn't have this conversion scenario and will yield better results.

November 2nd, 2007, 07:35 AM	#6
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	Jad... yeppers...I'm too lazy to remember whether the sensor was CMOS or CCD. There are differences, but, for the purposes of this discussion, it doesn't really matter. And, indeed, if one has the hardware support for passthru from the HD110 analog component ports, one might experience a slightly improved image. I'm afraid that capability is stratospheric stuff for many people, myself included. I would be interested to know if the HD110 is capable of the same image quality as the HD250. I.E. comparing the HD250 HD-SDI output to an HD110 analog output, fed into a HD-SDI converter on a short leash. I beleive the JVC ad campaign made a point of the fact that while there is 10bit output at the component port of the HD110, the internal A-D was 12 bit.

November 9th, 2007, 08:45 PM	#8
Federico Aragon New Boot Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 13	If not mistaken: HD100 - 4:2:0 8bit thru composite HD250 - 4:2:2 8bit thru HD-SDI I don't think the JVC can deliver more than 8bit after it passes the DSP, so if you want the most "uncompressed" signal you would definitely have to go with the HD250 (HD-SDI) to get the most out of the color space and bitrate. Please correct me if I'm wrong...

November 12th, 2007, 12:45 PM	#10
John Vincent Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 1,065	You're right - 4:2:2 component only (ie - not through the firewire). john evilgeniusentertainment.com

January 23rd, 2008, 05:17 PM	#11
Michael Maier Trustee Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 1,269	A cheaper alternative would be to use Blackmagic Intensity Pro to capture uncompressed component. You could also use Cineform NeoHD to considerably reduce the storage needed and it would still look like uncompressed.