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Old January 18th, 2008, 09:41 PM   #1
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What is the real benefit of shooting in 24p?

I recently saw a "movie" made for a group of new young movie makers of my country, Guatemala, shot in 24p (in a Panasonic) and could appreciate when they made pannings over subjects with thing lines, that these scenes had a "fliker" effect, like an unrendered effect, and some dialogues were out of lipsync.
I made my self the question of what is the real benefit of shooting in 24p? or What should I do to take out the best of my jvc DH100U shooting in this format?
I will appreciate your advises. Thanks.
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Old January 18th, 2008, 09:56 PM   #2
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Saul,

24P is an "acquired taste" in video realm. Its a matter of personal preference for the DOP to give the video the temporal feel of film. If not done "properly" in post it could skew everything. But given the current state of NLEs, its easier to remain in sync.

Its not ideal to use 24P if you have rapid pans or if you intend to slow motion the shot.
Its not uncommon to use different frame rates in a production. For narrative work that likes to mimic film, then 24P is ideal, especially for film out.

Ted
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Old January 19th, 2008, 12:01 AM   #3
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thanks, Ted What could be the right treatment?

Thanks, Ted for guide. What could be the right treatment to get a lipsync and to evoid that kind of flicker in panning movings.
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Old January 19th, 2008, 01:22 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saul Martinez View Post
Thanks, Ted for guide. What could be the right treatment to get a lipsync and to evoid that kind of flicker in panning movings.
treat the camera like a film camera. panning should be slow or extremely fast. slow meaning that it takes 5 seconds or longer for something to move from one side of the screen to the other. if the sound was out of synch, then that was a NLE issue. as far as WHY 24p? Well maybe I'll take a stab at that tomorrow after 8 hours of sleep and large cup of coffee.
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Old January 19th, 2008, 11:40 AM   #5
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In the early days of motion picture film production 16FPS was arbitrarily established as the standard frame rate, as it was above the perception ability of the human mind to detect individual frames. The problem of strobe-effect existed in fast action and panning, so the standard was raised by 50% to 24FPS.
Television established a frame rate of 30FPS, interlace, in order to sync with 60 cycle ac electricity (60 fields/sec = 30FPS). In order to convert film at 24fps to television at 30fps a system was designed that would double-print (project) every 6th frame of film, thus converting 24fps to 30fps. Since this is above the mind's individual frame perception this conversion to television was acceptable . . . except for fast moving action and/or panning. Then the doubled frames create a hick-up or stutter illusion, the "film look".
The intent of manufacturers in incorporating a 24FPS feature into video cameras is not to create a film look, but to allow video production for film release by direct frame-for-frame transfer to film. The cult "film Look" phenomenon in video production is, rather, the introduction of distortion to video production in order to emulate the "hick-up" of a film to video transfer.
It is interesting that for the last 20 to 30 years most high budget "Hollywood" film productions, including national tv commercial production destined for television release, are filmed at 30FPS in order to eliminate the "hick-up" anomaly.
The true "film-look" is achieved via gamma and colorimetry manipulation, along with good lighting and with good production values, not frame rate.
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Old January 19th, 2008, 12:01 PM   #6
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Kennedy - great post. I've been telling people this for years, but this is the most succinct, compact, and persuasive explanation I've ever encountered.
I can't tell you how disgusted I was when the DVX-100 started propogating this "pop" look. Clients wanted 24p and wouldn't use my (great) JVC DV500 in situations where 24p was so inappropriate (instruction videos, events, docs etc). OK, now I can deliver it, and I've developed a taste for occasions when it works for video delivery. - but I waited patiently for the 200 series to have the options of 60p with truly seamless motion/panning reproduction and the potential for pretty slo-mo. (Try THAT with your 24p material - BLECH)
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Old January 19th, 2008, 12:58 PM   #7
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Thanks for the comments, Sean.
I'm not meaning to be negative, but I find it interesting that the "In" folk who want to shoot 24FPS so desperately most likely haven't seen film as it was intended to be seen very often . . . on a large screen in a theater. Their reference to the "film look" has come from watching a movie on television. In a theater there are no burps or stutters. Film is rock stable and smooth. The anomalies com in during transfer to video and is only present in television. I know that you agree that lighting, camera set-up and operation (also script and acting) are what make a presentation of warmth, imagination, romance with the feel of quality . . . the feel of film.
Best regards,
Ken
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Old January 19th, 2008, 01:21 PM   #8
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thanks Kennedy

Thanks Kennedy for your clear explanation.
Saul
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Old January 19th, 2008, 01:24 PM   #9
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BTW - I recently got a screening setup together at my live/work crib. Went for the underdog HD-DVD, since I can make short HD discs on standard DVD-r.
But, one thing I pursued I'm real happy with. The HD player (Toshiba HD-A30) and the projector (720p panasonic AX-200) both support true 24 frame display.
It's subtle for some people, but it really bridges a gap for me in watching cinema in a home theater.
I effectively REMOVE the "24p video film look" cherished by the "don't know how much they don't know" crowd.
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