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Old February 6th, 2008, 01:28 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan Olinger View Post
Chris Poisson has a brief tutorial on capturing HDV directly to ProRess.
What concerns me about this approach, if I interpret it correctly, is that you would capture from the camera from FireWire (HDW, otherwise it would be component or HDSDI) which is a heavily compressed format into another compressed format that has data loss (ProRes). In other words you are transcoding. This inevitably will load in more data loss. If you capture from component out to ProRes then it's a different thing but HDW to ProRes is probably something to avoid.
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Old February 6th, 2008, 04:24 AM   #32
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^^ I only have the option to capture via FW at the moment so I guess I'm best avoiding the ProRes route then?

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Old February 6th, 2008, 09:20 AM   #33
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^^ I only have the option to capture via FW at the moment so I guess I'm best avoiding the ProRes route then?
Yes, I would capture the MPEG2 stream without transcoding and then edit it directly.
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Old February 6th, 2008, 11:55 AM   #34
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Hey Paolo, what does after effects offer that apple color and shake doesn't? I have access to color and shake but not after effects.
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Old February 6th, 2008, 12:53 PM   #35
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Hey Paolo, what does after effects offer that apple color and shake doesn't? I have access to color and shake but not after effects.
If you have Shake then you are all set. It's a completely different workflow but Shake is perfectly fine. My advice about AE is just based on its high penetration of the market. Many more people have After Effects on their machine than Shake. If you know Color then by all means, it's an excellent product. The basics of the workflow that I described applies to your situation as well. The important part is to be mindful of your bytes and avoid transcoding them and use the compositing program to do color correction/grading instead of the NLE. Shake has a lot of tools for color manipulation in a safe environment, using high precision, so it's perfectly fine. Its masking and tracking features are also very nice. I just happen to be more familiar with AE and most of my plugins are for AE. That is actually one of the strong points of After Effects, being the de-facto standard in the motion graphic industry, many, many plugins are designed for it.

BTW, Shake makes working with sequences of images very natural. The idea of outputting your master, after compositing, as a sequence of TIFFs applies to Shake just fine. After you create your sequence of individual frames you can load it in Shake with a simple FileIn node and the resize and or crop it using its high precision tools and output a clip for TV/DVD/iPod etc.
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Old February 6th, 2008, 06:38 PM   #36
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Yes, I would capture the MPEG2 stream without transcoding and then edit it directly.
Thanks Paulo.
And that's interesting about Shake also, certainly a program I've thought about getting hold of. Not knowing Shake or Colour well (and going along with what you've said) do both these programs offer higher bit 16 & 32 bit sampling? I guess (theoretically) if I were to capture m2t then edit in HDV timeline (8bit?) the final footage would still benefit from carrying out CC/Grading/Rendering in the higher sampling rates (before 'squeezing' it back into a SD format)?
Tell me I've got that right so I can sleep that little easier tonight :)

tbh - I'm keen on the FCS6 upgrade, not only for the adoption of Colour but also for the 5:1 sound in soundtrack pro (unless Logic Pro has this facility which would be rather handy).
Thanks.
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Old February 6th, 2008, 06:57 PM   #37
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Tell me I've got that right so I can sleep that little easier tonight :)
That's right. In fact the idea is to use the NLE to just do cuts, for which there is no need for high-precision calculations. Once you have locked your cuts you use your method of choice to export your timeline to a compositing program. Depending on what you need to do you could use Shake for compositing and CC or use Shake for compositing and Color for final grade. One thing, both programs are as far as possible to be Mac-friendly and that is one of my biggest gripes against Shake. It also has some hard to predict behavior when using "Send to Shake" from FCP. The color treatment of Shake is powerful but takes a lot of time to master.

Good luck
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Old February 6th, 2008, 10:24 PM   #38
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re capture/edit

Hi guys, so after reading all this i would like someone to spell it out about capture and then edit. I have a HD201,shoot in 72025p or 72050p then into FCP and the final out put is DVD.

1.CAPTUER over fire wire via (DVHS Cap) (Then convert to ?) or (FPC set to Pro Ress) ?
2. Edit ?
3. CC ? If needed
3. Export ?
4 Burn DVDSTUDIO PRO (OK)

One other thing is i find if i dd text to something using Motion/live type or direct in FCP, When watching it back on the dvd it never looks sharp.

Rob.
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Last edited by Robert Bale; February 6th, 2008 at 10:27 PM. Reason: to add
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Old February 6th, 2008, 10:38 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Bale View Post
Hi guys, so after reading all this i would like someone to spell it out about capture and then edit. I have a HD201,shoot in 72025p or 72050p then into FCP and the final out put is DVD.

1.CAPTUER over fire wire via (DVHS Cap) (Then convert to ?) or (FPC set to Pro Ress) ?
2. Edit ?
3. CC ? If needed
3. Export ?
4 Burn DVDSTUDIO PRO (OK)

One other thing is i find if i dd text to something using Motion/live type or direct in FCP, When watching it back on the dvd it never looks sharp.

Rob.

Hi Rob,
I dont get any of this. I shoot in 720/25p for TV commercials. Capture in FCP like i used to in DV and edit in HDV. I then copy the timeline and paste into a new SD sequence , render and export for mainstream TV. I get excellent results. The only thing that is bad is if you set up a new sequence and drag the HDV sequence into the SD timeline. You will find the quality is far from good. Sometimes I add the HDV timeline to the new sequence and then add the text.
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Old February 7th, 2008, 01:16 AM   #40
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hi dennis,

dont get me wrong i am happy with what i see, but always looking for something better,

how or what format do you export for TV, Do you have a link to some of the TVCs that i could see.
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Old February 7th, 2008, 01:54 AM   #41
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Robert, as I probably said before, my suggestion here is based on the assumption that you need transitions and CC. This might not be always the case. Let's say that my *suggested* workflow is viable when working with material for which image quality is of the highest priority. I must also say that I picked up most of it from Stu Maschwitz's "The DV Rebel's Guide", excellent book that I suggest for anyone interested in knowing more about shooting digital. Stu is one of the founders of "The Orphanage" and one of the developers of the original "Magic Bullet".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Bale View Post
1.CAPTUER over fire wire via (DVHS Cap) (Then convert to ?) or (FPC set to Pro Ress) ?
OK, it's important to understand here that our cameras record in a lossy format. You want to capture the data from the tape and avoid loosing more. Not even a bit. As good as ProRes is, it's another lossy codec. If you capture from the camer *directly* into ProRes you end up with a generation loss. Use Propres as an intermediate codec but be sure that you captured the "raw" data from the camera. That would be the HDV data stream or the .m2t file.

Quote:
One other thing is i find if i dd text to something using Motion/live type or direct in FCP, When watching it back on the dvd it never looks sharp.
Well, that's kind my point. FCP is an excellent editor, it's not a compositing suite. After Effects, Motion, Shake are the tools for the job. What I mean is that you should use a compositing suite for the very final output, the master of your sequence. Do it at 16 bit precision, 32 if you can, and you'll end up with an excellent result.
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Old February 7th, 2008, 02:55 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Paolo Ciccone View Post
. What I mean is that you should use a compositing suite for the very final output, the master of your sequence. Do it at 16 bit precision, 32 if you can, and you'll end up with an excellent result.
thanks for the reply,
so if i capture DVHS Cap, convert to sheer using stream clip, then open a new project in FCP using sheer as the compressor, do a straight edit, then highlight the whole sequence send to Motion for CC text, and Cross Fades.

Then export as a QT File using current settings.

If i want to take the step and use color when would i slip it in to the job.

This then i could open in such appz as Compressor or Bitvice.

I hope i have this right.

rob.
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Old February 7th, 2008, 09:55 AM   #43
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thanks for the reply,
so if i capture DVHS Cap, convert to sheer using stream clip, then open a new project in FCP using sheer as the compressor, do a straight edit, then highlight the whole sequence send to Motion for CC text, and Cross Fades.
Ok up to here...

Quote:
Then export as a QT File using current settings.
This implies that you go back to FCP and render the sequence with it which defies the purpose of using Motion for the high quality processing. Let Motion do the rendering. Export the master to high quality Sheer/Uncompressed and then drop the master into Compressor.
[/QUOTE]
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Old February 7th, 2008, 02:06 PM   #44
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I just had my first shakedown with shake, thanks to this - my most favorite workflow thread yet. I now understand the sense in this. But I have to say, "Noodles, Nodes, Squiggles, Knots," and no more timeline....? Someone is fooling with me right? I am now officially, completely lost, again.

Oh the journey
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Old February 7th, 2008, 02:36 PM   #45
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hey paolo, should I use sheer 1280x720p 24df rgb 10bt or 1280x720p 24df YDbCr as my sequence setting for FCP using hd100 footage?
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