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Old May 16th, 2008, 10:57 AM   #1
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Ok, folks - 24P question here

I've looked thru MANY pages looking for an answer so I'm hoping someone can point me in the right direction.

Before I begin, I'd really like this NOT to turn into a 24P vs. 60P "magic" debate. I'm just trying to establish what I'm doing wrong.

When I shoot 24P on my brand new HD200U, it is NOT film-like in the least. It looks like REALLY BAD web video. Jerky motion, regardless of locked off or pans. This is in the viewfinder, on my NLE monitor as well as downconverted to NTSC DVD. Then I look at Tims' Ariana Gillis video and go "yes, that looks like film". I realize Tim used the COPLA but the motion is what I'm after, not the DOF.

http://www.timdashwood.com/arianagillis

What step am I missing? I've tried capturing into FCP using HDV Easy Setups, HDV to ProRES.

Thanks for the advice in advance. With all the people saying 24P is the Holy Grail, I know I must be missing SOMETHING! Until then, I'm shooting 60P.
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Old May 16th, 2008, 11:26 AM   #2
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Make sure your shutter speed is set at 1/48 or above.

Click the menu selection wheel on the left side of the camera to turn the shutter on (off of auto) and scroll up to 1/48. You may have to go into the menu to turn "step" shutter on.

You may be set at 1/24 which will give you more light, but 1/24 or anything below will make it look like "bad web video". If you go any lower than 1/24 then any motion you put in front of that lens will blur like crazy.
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Old May 16th, 2008, 11:49 AM   #3
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I second that, it sounds like your shutter speed is at 1/24th or lower. 1/48th will reproduce a 180 degree shutter in film and should be what you use for most applications with the JVC to get a film look.

is there anyway you could post a clip to show exactly what you are talking about?
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Old May 16th, 2008, 12:43 PM   #4
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Nope, shooting at 1/48th. I'll upload the raw to Vimeo and post the link wen it's done. Thanks for the quick response, folks!
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Old May 16th, 2008, 02:18 PM   #5
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<<Link Removed>>

Thanks to all who viewed and commented.
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Last edited by Shaun Roemich; May 17th, 2008 at 10:52 AM.
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Old May 16th, 2008, 02:40 PM   #6
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My computer doesn't play this well. However, are you talking about jumps/stuttering during panning or when the camera is still?

With 24p pans have to be very, very, very slow (there are charts) and even then the results aren't great. The problems can be made worse by any pulldown added and/or the type of display.

Are you getting the jumpiness when you play back off the tape directly to a progessive monitor?

Even panning shots done in major films where they follow all the rules, I don't think look good.

However, if there are other issues, I don't know.
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Old May 16th, 2008, 02:40 PM   #7
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Shaun,

I think you may find the answer in your question. Zooming, panning and tilting are not something you really want to be doing whilst shooting at 24fps with 1/48 shutter. HDV creates some undesirable results when you continue to use these video methods.

I'd recommend changing your approach altogether when shooting HDV at 24fps. Try to think like film, not video. Concentrate on light, colour and composition rather than tilting, panning and zooming.

That 'film' look and feel comes from a lot more than just 24fps. For an easy way to achieve what i think you are after, maybe look at a 35mm DOF adaptor?

Hope that helps
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Old May 16th, 2008, 02:48 PM   #8
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Understood, but it still looks WRONG. Film doesn't look like that. Footage shot by others doesn't look like that. I uploaded that example to show off worst case footage. The pans strobe. They are PLENTY slow enough. The zoom was fast but I wasn't sure how the video would show up when compressed to Vimeo so I included it to ensure SOMETHING fell apart..

Please view the Tim Dashwood video above and tell me why my footage strobes and his doesn't. I understand he is using the COPLA and a film prime but that shouldn't affect the motion artifacting. He is handheld and pans. I'm on sticks.

I don't believe what I am seeing in my footage is "ALL" that 24p can be.
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Old May 16th, 2008, 02:52 PM   #9
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Jack: yes, the stuttering is my issue. It looks to me (on all monitors) like a frame strobe effect has been applied where frames are thrown away. Even the motion of the guy on the lawn mower looks disjointed while not zooming.

And the higher the shutter speed, the more pronounced the stutter, as one would expect.
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Old May 16th, 2008, 03:29 PM   #10
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I'm guessing you're shooting in HDV 24p and not DV 24PA. Because, depending on your output, the PA can be an issue. But if you're shooting in HD, then I really don't know.
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Old May 16th, 2008, 03:39 PM   #11
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Yes, Levi: I shot that "video" (admittedly, it's bad but I'm trying to show off failings) as HDV 720P24 at 1/48th shutter.

I was starting to think it was a pull down issue but now I really don't have a clue, hence my exasperation. Thankfully, I think I'll be shooting 60P for the project starting next week.
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Old May 16th, 2008, 04:28 PM   #12
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If I were you I'd try a test.

First setup the camera in the kind of situation you did the first time, with things far away, in focus, etc.

Then, without moving the camera or changing the settings, video someone a few feet in front of the camera, standing still, jumping up and down walking by while you pan with them.

Then look at the video and see how the strobing compares in the two kinds of shots. If the second type looks good, the problem is in the nature of your shooting in the first part. If the second strobes the same as the first, there is some other issue, with the camera, the display or whatever.

Just a suggestion.

I suggest this because I have found with my Canon XH-A1 at 24F if I have a wide shot and pan at all there is strobing. On the other hand, if I am following a dancer jumping about I can move the camera all over the place and the video looks perfect.

I haven't used my HD110 at 24P yet, but I will be interesested to know if I get results similar to the XH-A1 at 24F.
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Old May 16th, 2008, 04:31 PM   #13
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I'm no expert on this by any means, but here is my feedback based on what I am reading and seeing.

First of all, I haven't made the switch to 24p for the exact same reasons as you. I hear everyone talk about how great it is, and I see people using it and it looks great, so I want to do it too... but, when I pan or tilt I get juddering as well.

The vimeo footage you posted looked like the pan was too fast. I know you think it is slow, but based on my 24p tests I still think you are panning too fast.

In my opinion, the video reference you posted (Tims' Ariana Gillis) isn't comparable to the footage you posted. There was nothing in the reference video (and I watched it really closely) that I would have considered a true "pan" or "tilt" (mainly because they were so short and/or fast). The zooming in the reference video was always short and fast too, whereas I would classify yours as lengthier. My feeling on this is that it is possible that the reference video could have "judders", but because most of the camera movement appeared quickly (short duration) and was edited tightly it is very, very tough to see (I coudn't see it at all, but that doesn't mean it isn't there).

Another thing (and this is my own personal feeling) is that the reference video is basically telling a story. It has a beginning, a middle, an end, and even [musically] has a plot. That is much different than abitrary footage taken to make a point. Psychologically, I believe it is much easier to pick-out "bad things" when the subject matter isn't strong enough to hold your attention (that's usually when I get bored with what I'm watching and start attacking every little thing). I'm saying this because I would agree that the footage you posted does judder, but it is so obvious because there's nothing else to pull your attention away from that.

I don't think the lawn mower guy looked disjointed at all. Even if he did, it would make sense when you see he's riding a lawn mower and bouncing all over the place due to the roughness of the ground he's driving on. I did see some "odd" movement in the background, but it looked either like video artifacts from compression or possibly heat dissipation off the pavement.

I'd love to know the "secrets" behind 24p myself... cause I feel like I'm missing out. It's actually good for me to see I'm not the only one experiencing these issues/concerns... maybe one day we'll find the cure : ) I watch action movies and think the fast movement and camera work is great, but don't have a clue how I could pull something like that off shooting 24p. It would be so cool to be allowed 1 full day on a production set where I could just follow the camera-people around and pick their brains.

For now, 30p is working very well for me. I still have to watch it on my pans, zooms, and tilts... but I can get away with a little more in 30p than I can in 24p.

Best of luck to you.
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Old May 16th, 2008, 04:38 PM   #14
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Ok, back to homework for me this weekend. I apologize for the tone of any posts of mine that may have seemed negative or aggressive. I'm VERY frustrated right now at trying to emulate what I've seen but can't reproduce. I'll light some seated interviews with "normal" camera moves and see how that goes. And I'll head out to the park to try and follow some real world activities such as frisbee or walking a dog.

I DO appreciate the input of everybody here and am very thankful that anybody took time out of their schedule to try and help me with my "little problem".

Up til now I've felt like the child in the Emperor's New Clothes: "Am I the only one one who sees that this isn't right?"
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Old May 16th, 2008, 05:00 PM   #15
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Well it's hard to tell from the web. With 24p and less with 30p pans should be done with a subject crossing that the camera is following along. Pans without a subject to follow are generally at 1/48th and tend to look mushy, or else it's a fast pan so everything goes blury. Not quite like Batman the 60's series. Now I'm shooting 24p for everything, even sports since I like how it can be burned to DVD I think is MUCH better than 30p. Here is a 24p slow motion (50% reduction) and in BW... Way too compressed for my taste, but I didn't have the patience for uploading a larger file. This is part of a project for a friend, so it's largely out of context. I do sports generally at 1/60th to split the difference with 60i 1/60th video look... any slower and the slow motion looks too mushy for my taste.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XguU1WpBfpM
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