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Old June 30th, 2008, 05:00 PM   #1
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35mm converters' differences

Hi to everybody,
this is my first post even if I have been looking at this precious forum for years.
I own a JVC 111E, you can see some of my works on my site www.ginuz.it.
I'd like to buy a 35mm converter. The p+s technik costs too much, indeed, I think that if you have a 6000 camera is nonsense spending 12000 in a lens adapter + for the lenses. It would make more sense spending the same amount of money to buy a red camera or some other 2/3' fullHD cameras.
The redrock seems to be great for price and performance. But I noticed that in all photos the m2 is attached to the fujinon lens and the camera become long as a bazooka!
The first question is: Is it possible to attach the m2 directly on the camera's body? (as the p+s technik does).
The other cheaper solutions are the letus35... but if I understand well it isn't for JVC.
Then there is the realively new p+s technik mini35Compact (but still too expensive).
And in the end the HZ-CA13U adapter, the jvc's one. This seems nice but it doesn't flip the image (but if I am not wrong the 111e can record flipped image or display flipped image).
But the HZ-CA13U reaches only 16mm DOF and not 35mm DOF, am I wrong on this?
Can you suggest which is the best solution?
thank you,
best regards and thanks in advance.
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Old June 30th, 2008, 05:23 PM   #2
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Hi Gigi,

I've done a lot of research on 35mm adapters, although I've yet to purchase one. It seems different people like different adapters and it's generally a matter of preference. I would recommend using DVInfo's 'search' tool to look up existing posts on the subject. There's a lot of info out there from people with far more experience than me.

Two other adapters that you didn't mention that I should bring to your attention are the SGPro (made in England) and the Brevis (made in Canada).

You're right that the HZ-CA13U (a.k.a. COPLA) is for 16mm lenses and thus produces the corresponding depth of field. It also doesn't flip the image, which is something that the HD110 and 111 doesn't correct for.

All of the 35mm lens adapters that don't have their own relay lens are going to make the JVC camera very long, but I suppose that's the trade-off for having the pro-style lens. None of the 35mm adapters that aren't made by P+S Technic can attach directly to the camera. There must be a lens to capture the image on the adapter's ground glass and send it to the CCD chip. Letus is apparently in the process of developing a relay lens to do this, but the unofficial price point for the relay lens alone is about $4000.

Personally, if I have the money, I'll likely buy the Brevis. It's not that any of the other ones look bad. It's more that I like the industrial design of the Brevis and its accessories, and I've heard no complaints about build quality or attachment complexity.

Good luck,
- Sean
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Old June 30th, 2008, 07:49 PM   #3
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Either of you guys want a basically virgin Brevis, mail me. I used mine for all of about half an hour. It's the imaging bundle specifically for this camera - plus a few extras. Two diffusers, one never used, a quick release rails mount, step down ring, the case, charger... everything. $800. Believe me, it's all perfect. Just worked out I got into telephoto way more than anything else.
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Old July 1st, 2008, 04:19 AM   #4
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Gigi-

Don't forget to check out a good UK and not too expensive 35mm adapter -the SGPro at http://www.shoot35.com/

It's a well designed unit and has great support from Wayne Kinney -he personally made sure the unit worked on my JVCGYHD201 and we have a short film and music video about to be premiered next month that used his adapter.

You are right about it becoming a bit of a bazooka in length since it attaches to the stock lens -especially when you add a mattebox and HDD!... but once you get used to it you soon forget. We have had the full setup on a jib and handheld and while it was quite heavy it was possible to get some great shots.

All the best
Dan
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Old July 1st, 2008, 04:26 AM   #5
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Gigi, my experience is with Mini35 and with the JVC adapter.

I would first determine what you use it for.

Basically, I use the mini 35 for fiction. But the Mini-35 is just one part of doing 35mm fiction, and just putting a mini-35 or other adapter on your cam won't give you a 35mm image yet. You need the lighting (i.e. you need very specific decisions, even in all natural light like Dogma films), you need the dolly and rails for the travellings etc., the specific make-up, and all the logistics that go with it. So when you have all these rentals on your film, renting the mini-35 is almost an after-thought. And renting the HS-primes, arri followfocus costs more than the adapter. (you may use 24/36 lenses but the precise focus pulling is really very very difficult because of the small rings and some produce vignetting)

also, you need the people to go with it: DP (yourself?) + the totally indispensable cam assistant/focus-puller without whom you can't do much with this d-o-f, gaffers, dolly grips who know how to execute smooth motions both horizontal and vertical (I use a Movie-Tech Magnum dolly on my shoots). again so you have not only the d-o-f but the whole cinema feel and creative range, intresting movements in-out-across of the screen, taking advantage of the 16/9 or 2.35 format etc.

and you need a screenplay worthy of this treatment to begin with. and all the rest.

In the end, when all is in place, the JVC cam will only cut your stock and lab costs, and if you run the DR-HD100 on Quicktime, the possibility to beam your rushes at the end of the day, rather than waiting for the lab returns. That's still an enormous savings, but that's it.

For documentary work the JVC adapter works well but is cumbersome to adjust in the settings each time you change lens (unless you use a set of perfectly matched cine primes). And my experience has shown that the d-o-f difference with the stock or optional Fujinons isn't that big. Unless it's really important to get the crispest image, I would stick to the Fujinons.

Or another suggestion might be to try to adapt the all-manual Canon "cine-style" HDV zoom lens to the JVC because it's not that expensive (around $ 3000 I think) and much better quality.

Just my - very long - two cents...
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Old July 1st, 2008, 08:23 AM   #6
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thanks

Hi,
thanks to everyone for the precious suggestions.
I saw the brevis site and it seems very good to me, thank you.
The SGPro seems good, too.
I know that the whole apparatus would became tricky and difficult, but I am well aware of that. I really love to work that way. Of course I'd like to shoot fiction with it. And music videos, too.
I am really about to buy something within the summer, my only doubt is about dimensions and prices, but I am really going to move a step foreward.

you can take a quick look at some of my work, done with stock lens:

http://www.ginuz.it/thunderpage2.html
http://www.ginuz.it/juanpage.html
http://www.ginuz.it/karneapage.html

(this one was with old xl1s canon, stock lens)
http://www.ginuz.it/kunkpage.html

Now I will browse the forum to understand which lenses are best, PL or Nikon, and why. And also if there's more market for used PL or used Nikon or whatelse.

thanks to everyone.

gg.
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Old July 1st, 2008, 09:07 AM   #7
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don't forget to factor in a decent HD field monitor.... that was my first basic mistake, believing I could get away with either a SD monitor, or OnLocation on a laptop... even with a top of the range focus puller as I had, you still need a fool-proof method of double checking focus...
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Old July 1st, 2008, 09:16 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Parkes View Post
don't forget to factor in a decent HD field monitor.... that was my first basic mistake, believing I could get away with either a SD monitor, or OnLocation on a laptop... even with a top of the range focus puller as I had, you still need a fool-proof method of double checking focus...
Did you get a HD field Monitor then Dan? If so which one (a 'proper one' will set you back thousands wouldn't it?)?
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Old July 1st, 2008, 09:31 AM   #9
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Quote:
also, you need the people to go with it: DP (yourself?) + the totally indispensable cam assistant/focus-puller without whom you can't do much with this d-o-f, gaffers, dolly grips who know how to execute smooth motions both horizontal and vertical (I use a Movie-Tech Magnum dolly on my shoots). again so you have not only the d-o-f but the whole cinema feel and creative range, intresting movements in-out-across of the screen, taking advantage of the 16/9 or 2.35 format etc.
I was seriously thinking of either purchasing or renting a 35mm adaptor with lens, but of course if focus pull is as tough as advised working with this DOF then I'm not so sure the budget (it's for a film) will stretch to a follow focus and 'HS primes' (apologies - not sure what is meant by HS primes - lenses?). It might be far more economical (and in this instance - do'able) to purchase a WA convertor and not worry too much over the distortion (which is really heavy in some fantastic movies - The Lives of Others for one!).
Given that the budget is so low we might end up shooting with the stock JVC HD100 fujinon lens. Interesting comments Claude. I'm teching on this film (shooting/editing/music if I get my own way :) ) but I know the guy behind the film would prefer the 35mm look etc.

Quote:
For documentary work the JVC adapter works well but is cumbersome to adjust in the settings each time you change lens (unless you use a set of perfectly matched cine primes). And my experience has shown that the d-o-f difference with the stock or optional Fujinons isn't that big. Unless it's really important to get the crispest image, I would stick to the Fujinons.
Is this a wide angle adaptor you're referring to Claude, or another 35mm adaptor?
Cheers.

Good luck with your choice Gigi - and good vids you've posted by the way.
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Old July 1st, 2008, 09:38 AM   #10
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yeah, that's a problem, too.
I was thinking about some JVC CRT monitor, like the little JVC DT-V100CG or its follow up 17' JVC DT-V1710CG.
Now I am monitoring with a cheap samsung 23' HD ready TV. It's a total crap but I am saving money for a better solution. I just set it up to respect a decent bright/contrast and very little of color similarity by an eye comparison with the computer monitor (CRT fixed with proper tool for broadcast colors).
gg
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Old July 1st, 2008, 11:43 PM   #11
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I have a marshall monitor kit with 12 hours of use for sale. Everything listed on the site is included and practically brand new. Asking $1500.00. Here is the link to B&H where I purchased this on May 28th. It is in almost perfect condition with little signs of use. Moving and must sell to pay for gas :( . Email me if interested. ( retails for $2199.00 ).

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...D_Monitor.html

email: c a l i m a t t 8 7 at y a h o o c o m
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Old July 2nd, 2008, 02:09 AM   #12
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Hi Gigi! What settings did you use on the band in the "Pornodiva" Music video? Great work by the way! Edward
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Old July 2nd, 2008, 02:37 AM   #13
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Gigi, HS primes refers to fixed-focus high-speed lenses. if you're using cinema lenses the mini 35 requires the HS kind otherwise there's vignetting.

The "JVC adapter" I'm referring to is the HZ-CA13U optical 16mm adapter by JVC. I believe it comes with all sorts of mounts. Note that you can use 35mm lenses (cinema or photo) as well as 16mm lenses on this adapter but you can't use 16mm lenses on the mini35.

Yes, I forgot about the monitors. That's a tough and costly question. On my last shoot I used a Panasonic BT-LH1700 and the DP had an ASTRO.
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Old July 2nd, 2008, 02:49 AM   #14
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Hi Gigi! What settings did you use on the band in the "Pornodiva" Music video? Great work by the way! Edward
Hi, The "Pornodiva" music video is one of the few I didn't touch the images in post at all.
All you see comes out of the camera, it's just edited. I think I have some True Color 3 from Paolo Ciccone's settings with little modify by myself, I don't remember well. I set it up some time ago, I found it optimal for my style and never changed! I only switch to a full color, full saturation, standard settings for a live performance and then I always used this setting.
The only thing I vary sometimes is the color gain/general saturation, but the base is TC3.
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Old July 2nd, 2008, 03:24 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Gigi Tufano View Post
Hi, The "Pornodiva" music video is one of the few I didn't touch the images in post at all.
All you see comes out of the camera, it's just edited. I think I have some True Color 3 from Paolo Ciccone's settings with little modify by myself, I don't remember well. I set it up some time ago, I found it optimal for my style and never changed! I only switch to a full color, full saturation, standard settings for a live performance and then I always used this setting.
The only thing I vary sometimes is the color gain/general saturation, but the base is TC3.
Fantastic Video Gigi (I also like the music on this video) - 16mm/35mm used or just the standard fujinon? Looks great all the same.
I'll take a look at the short film later today.
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