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Old December 14th, 2008, 02:40 AM   #1
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What to do........and why

I hope someone can help a HD newbie here.......

After Christmas, I have been asked to Shoot an outdoors show, lots of scenery etc on HD.
Up till now I have used DVCPro50, and this is my first time using HD for a serious show.
What I want to know is, what format should I shoot it in? 720/25 or 720/50 ?
I am looking for clean crisp smooth pictures if I can get them.

I have 2 ProHD Cameras, a GY-HD111E and a GY-HD200U to choose from.
I also have a HZ-CA13U and some primes.
Also as in a previous post, I have a 2/3/ to 1/3 adaptor and a selection of nice 2/3 lenses up to 33x etc

It will be played into the editor with a BR-HD50E.

I know this is a broad question, but how would you do it, bearing in mind it will be aired on HD down here in Oz.........

Cheers
John
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Old December 14th, 2008, 06:15 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Harbor View Post
I hope someone can help a HD newbie here.......

After Christmas, I have been asked to Shoot an outdoors show, lots of scenery etc on HD.
Up till now I have used DVCPro50, and this is my first time using HD for a serious show.
What I want to know is, what format should I shoot it in? 720/25 or 720/50 ?
I am looking for clean crisp smooth pictures if I can get them.
I normally use 720p25 for regular work. My standard for delivery is 25p DVD. It gives me a nice, almost filmlike picture. I only use 50p for very fast movement or if I want to do slowmo in post. The disadvantage of 50p is that it uses more compression (or longer GOP) to put the 50 frames in the same HDV bandwidth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Harbor View Post
I have 2 ProHD Cameras, a GY-HD111E and a GY-HD200U to choose from.
I also have a HZ-CA13U and some primes.
I also have the HZ-CA13U. I use it with a HD200. Advantage is that this one has a build in image reverse function in the Camera Process menu. The HZ will flip your image optically. So you'll need a HD200, if you intend to use PL lenses.
For concerts, shows etc. I would not use primes or other film lenses. It brings a lot of issues with them. For example: every lens requires a different kind of white shading adjustment, which can be very cumbersome while shooting. Currently, I'm using a Canon 8-64mm Super16 zoom in a low-budget feature production, and every F-stop needs it's own white shading setting. I now keep the aperture wide open (2.4) to have the shortest possible Depth of Field, and adjust exposure with ND's, shutter and lighting. Not very practical while in the field.

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Originally Posted by John Harbor View Post
Also as in a previous post, I have a 2/3/ to 1/3 adaptor and a selection of nice 2/3 lenses up to 33x etc
I do not have experience with 2/3 lenses on the JVC. I believe this adapter only allows you to attach them, but does not convert the image to the smaller Field of view of the camera. This would render a wide-angle lens to a normal or even medium-tele lens. Not very practical. Another disadvantage of using old 2/3 lenses is that they were made for older SD camera's and not for HD. Coating, glass etc. is not designed for this camera, altough it can be used I guess.

My advice is: in cinematic productions (video clips, short films, features) in a controlled environment you could start to mess around with the HZ-adapter and some good PL film lenses.

For all other regular work: pick up the Fujinon TH13x3.5 Wide-angle zoom lens. It works like a dream and gives you stunning wide-angle capabilities. Otherwise, the Fujinon stock lens is perfectly acceptable for run-and-gun style work.
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Old December 14th, 2008, 02:52 PM   #3
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I will never again use this camera in 50p mode to shoot fast moving subjects to be slowed down in post. The results are horrendous!

please see

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/jvc-pro-h...gh-motion.html

I'd only recommend using 50p if you want to slow down something that's not too detailed or fast moving (unless you are tracking the subject and maintaining it's focus, framing and composition within the shot).

I learned the hard and expensive way as we had to get a load of horses, riders, costumes and location all organised again for a re-shoot. 50p for fast stuff? No way!

However, I've slowed down 50p stuff when the subjects are moving slowly with some nice results.

Just be careful or at least shoot a test!

Hope that helps.
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Old December 14th, 2008, 04:06 PM   #4
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Thanks guys, this is all good info that may save me a heap of hassles......taking every bit in.
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Old December 15th, 2008, 12:52 AM   #5
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help with frame rates.

I had a bit of a play around today.....
I really don't like the jittery motion on a pan, even when done slow shooting 720p/25 @ 250th shutter.
I like the look very much more at 720p/50 , but only the 200U will do it.....not my second camera, a 111E
I think some footage will come from both camera's..........what to do ???
Or am I doing something wrong...... everyone says they shoot most of their stuff at 25, but how do you get rid of the jitters as much as possible ? and get a smoother look like seen at 50 ?
Sorry if this all seems a bit basic, but I am right at the pointy end of a shift into HDV and am stumped with a fix that will alow me to use both camera's
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Old December 15th, 2008, 12:00 PM   #6
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I'm in Canada so we're 60p instead of 50 but I shoot 60P exclusively and love the motion. I could see where the codec would fall apart if you tried to slow the footage down but for delivery to either web or DVD (not doing Blu-Ray here yet but I've done a few HD-DVDs that look great), the conversion looks great.

As well, if you're shooting at high shutter (you mentioned 1/250), motion is going to look more stuttered regardless of what frame rate you choose. Look at Olympic swimming on TV. You can see each individual drop of water perfectly formed in the air.
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Old December 15th, 2008, 12:41 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Harbor View Post
I had a bit of a play around today.....
I really don't like the jittery motion on a pan, even when done slow shooting 720p/25 @ 250th shutter.
I would stick around 1/50th or at MOST 1/100th of a second. I'm in NTSC land so I do 1/48th (24p) for drama and 1/60th for sports also at 24p. I almost never go as high as 1/100th.
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Old December 15th, 2008, 12:47 PM   #8
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To add to the advice Alex gives, I'll use 1/250 OUTDOORS for a talking head in order to get the background soft but zero movement, including talent's hands. Other than that, 1/100 or 1/60 for "normal" shooting here in 60Hz land.
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Old December 15th, 2008, 12:54 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Shaun Roemich View Post
To add to the advice Alex gives, I'll use 1/250 OUTDOORS for a talking head in order to get the background soft but zero movement, including talent's hands. Other than that, 1/100 or 1/60 for "normal" shooting here in 60Hz land.
To ADD to Seans' ADD. I also picked up a ND4 filter to combine with my electronic ND filters to force the aperature open. Same result as ramping up the shutter speed in reference to depth of field. I did a search via amazon.com and got a good glass one for some blow out sale for $15. HEMC coating. BH sold the same filter for $65. Best $15 i've spent recently. So that's another option to help force open the aperture. I wouldn't spend the $65 though.
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Old December 15th, 2008, 01:07 PM   #10
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my electronic ND filters to force the aperature open.
I BELIEVE the ND filters on the JVCs physically insert ND material into the optical path, just like on the "big boys". Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Yeah, Alex, I've been meaning to get some heavier ND filters but decide to wait until I get my matte box, then I'll get 4x4 filters. But at $15? Giddy Up!
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Old December 15th, 2008, 02:54 PM   #11
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I BELIEVE the ND filters on the JVCs physically insert ND material into the optical path, just like on the "big boys". Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
I don't think your wrong. I noticed that recently when I had the switch between ND1 and ND2 and part of the screen was vignetted.
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Old December 15th, 2008, 04:39 PM   #12
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inbuilt nds

on the JVCs are real ones, but not enough in real bright light alone if you want to use a lower shutter speed, at least use a polariser or extra .9ND to control you light.
Shooting 24/25p as long as your tight should look great, it's not a whip around type speed and with practise looks good, I often use the 1/200 shutter (or whatever it is can't remember right now if it's that or 1/250) with high speed action. You can record SD at 50/60p as well if that helps on both camera's I'm reasonably sure.
Those inbuilt NDs can be not fully located causing the vignetting if you don't push the slide all the way home at the given position.

regards

Adam
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Old December 16th, 2008, 11:37 AM   #13
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I just check at amazon.com they still have the filter I got for $14.95. I guess I was right on what it cost me. I don't remember the shipping. But if anyone needs to pick up some decent ND filters. Here was the link.

Amazon.com: Hoya HMC NDX4 - Filter - neutral density 4x - 82 mm: Camera & Photo
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Old December 21st, 2008, 02:56 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Harbor View Post
I had a bit of a play around today.....
I really don't like the jittery motion on a pan, even when done slow shooting 720p/25 @ 250th shutter.
I like the look very much more at 720p/50 , but only the 200U will do it.....not my second camera, a 111E
I think some footage will come from both camera's..........what to do ???
Or am I doing something wrong...... everyone says they shoot most of their stuff at 25, but how do you get rid of the jitters as much as possible ? and get a smoother look like seen at 50 ?
Sorry if this all seems a bit basic, but I am right at the pointy end of a shift into HDV and am stumped with a fix that will alow me to use both camera's
Hi John,
You have to learn to shoot like a film camera to avoid the judder. I had a real tough time when i first got my camera but now I have learnt how to do it, I have no problem at all. I shoot TV commercials for a living and we shoot everything at 720/25. I have the 13 x lens as well which is the best money I have ever spent. You must learn to shoot differently altogether. I know what you are going through.
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Old December 21st, 2008, 06:00 AM   #15
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Hi Dennis

Can you give me a quick rundown on how you mean.....
I know I will have to go through the motions, but info from someone who has been there will give me a huge start......
and you say the 13x is that good........how much did you pay here in Oz mate?

John
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