Filters

[Ryan Avery]

Originally Posted by Jason McCormy

So, my boss gave me the JVC GY HD200u as a Christmas bonus. It is all mine. Which means I'm totally responsible now for all equipment.

I wanted to get some filters for it. Specifically, 4x4 filters. Right now, I have a Tiffen Black Diffusion 1, and a Tiffen UV filter. What other ones would you recommend? I was thinking about picking this kit up Cavision | Set of 4x4" Glass Filters | FTG4X4SET | B&H but don't really know anything about it. For instance, some of the filters seem to be only colored on one half, which seems strange.

Thank you all again for your help.

Jason

Jason,

You certainly have the option to buy whatever fits your budget. However, keep in mind that to get the full HD quality you have in your camera, you need HD quality glass across the board from the lens to the filters you use. This means you need water white glass. We offer all of our filters in this grade of glass and so do a few other manufacturers however not the ones you are currently looking at. Something to keep in mind.

Check out our starter kit which has most everything you need. The video is linked as well. If you don't think you need all 5 in the kit, they are available for seperate purchase.

Century DV/HDV Filters - Schneider Optics

Schneider Optics

Whatever you do, definitely buy a Polarizer and some ND filters.

IMO, don't cheap out on the following components of your video system; Tripod, Lens, Filters, Audio. Anything else is fair territory for lower quality items.

What my brand of filter does and known info on other brands (good or bad) is all the advice I can offer. The community here will chime in with suggestions of brands and what works for them.

Ryan Avery
Schneider Optics

[Steve Phillipps]

There you go Jason, I told you Ryan was yer man!
Personally I'm not 100% sure just how vital the type of glass used in the filters would be, coatings maybe. For example Ryan if you shot a test on say an F900 with one of your ND filters and a cheaper "non hd" one side by side, and then viewed it on a big A grade monitor would you expect to see a noticeable difference, and if so in what way and how much?
Steve

[Shaun Roemich]

Jason, I was looking into the Schneider filters as well and when I get my matte box, I will be picking up either the Starter set or a hand picked array myself.

[Jason McCormy]

OK, thank you. I will have a look at them and see about getting some money together to purchase them.

[David W. Jones]

The Cavision filters you mentioned are "crap".
If you want to use crap filters, buy mine and save a little money since I don't use mine.

Do yourself a favor, learn what each filter does & when it should be used & when it should not be used. Rather than spending your cash on toys that you may never end up using, or end up using on everything you shoot making your video look like.....

[Shaun Roemich]

From my personal experience:
- A polarizer is a GREAT tool to have in the bag
- With the JVC, I'd personally like to have a couple of different strength ND filters in my bag as well
- If I'm going to carry ND around, a graduated .6 ND would come in handy
- Frosts and mists - PERSONALLY I'll add treatment like that in post - Will it look the same? No but I have more control and you can't "unmist" something

[Ryan Avery]

Originally Posted by Steve Phillipps

There you go Jason, I told you Ryan was yer man!
Personally I'm not 100% sure just how vital the type of glass used in the filters would be, coatings maybe. For example Ryan if you shot a test on say an F900 with one of your ND filters and a cheaper "non hd" one side by side, and then viewed it on a big A grade monitor would you expect to see a noticeable difference, and if so in what way and how much?
Steve

Glass quality affects the resolution of the final image. Clarity of the glass is only true for resolution. Coatings facilitate light transmission but really are there for anti-reflective properties. Anyone who talks more about coatings is talking about reducing negative effects of the lower quality glass. Coatings are necessary and the type is very important but only if you have a good base to start with.

The apparent resolution that would be noted on the monitor would be tough to see unless looking at fine details. The real question with ND filters is how "grey" they really are. If you do not a have a truly neutral grey then the camera white balance will be off across the board. If you place any ND from another manufacturer on a white piece of paper and compare a Schneider next to it; you will see which one is truly grey. Of this I am 100% confident. The same can also be said for polarizers in terms of efficiency.

Ryan Avery
Schneider Optics

[Ryan Avery]

Originally Posted by Shaun Roemich

From my personal experience:
- A polarizer is a GREAT tool to have in the bag
- With the JVC, I'd personally like to have a couple of different strength ND filters in my bag as well
- If I'm going to carry ND around, a graduated .6 ND would come in handy
- Frosts and mists - PERSONALLY I'll add treatment like that in post - Will it look the same? No but I have more control and you can't "unmist" something

Shaun,

Good point about mist and frost filters. Post can be useful for this but you do lose a significant amoung of eye detail. I often tell people to use a very light frost filter (1/8 or 1/4 max). This way the effect is so slight that it does reduce high frequency details but doesn't over soften the image to where somebody thinks it looks filtered. Then start stacking on your post for that softened look. Of course if you know the level of softening you want for sure then go for the gusto and throw in the proper level of filtration to avoid over softened look that post provides.

Ryan Avery
Schneider Optics

[Steve Phillipps]

Originally Posted by Ryan Avery

The apparent resolution that would be noted on the monitor would be tough to see unless looking at fine details

That's kind of what I thought, not 100% true to say that you need "HD" filters for HD cameras.

Originally Posted by Ryan Avery

The real question with ND filters is how "grey" they really are. If you do not a have a truly neutral grey then the camera white balance will be off across the board

Couldn't agree more, and there's nothing worse than even a slightly off-colour ND Grad, when as I said above you're trying to use it so you don't even notice it.

Thanks again for your expertise Ryan, I might just take you up on the "Schneider ND Challenge"!

Steve

[Bob Hart]

Ryan.


Don't forget to mention the infra-red contamination problem with some brands of ND's.

[Jason McCormy]

Well, the Cavision filters arrived.

I spent the weekend comparing them with the three Tiffen 4x4 filters I have shooting primarily outdoor shots. They are not bad. At one time they may have been junk, but it seems their quality is up to the point of fairly decent. They seem to block a little more light than the equivalent Tiffens, and the polarizing filter while not bad isn't that great, for roughly 45 dollars it is actually pretty good.

The gradient filters are not that abrupt in their change. So over all, while not the best filters they are more than decent and will suit me for some of the more interesting shots I'm doing.

So now, I think I'm going to invest in a couple of really good filters. Either Tiffen or, as I am now leaning thanks to their input, Schneider filters for interviews. Specifically, it is for the head of a company. What do you all recommend for an interview, indoors with great lighting, to remove any facial blemishes? Right now I have a Tiffen Black Diffusion 1 but it seems a little strong.

Oh, and what kind of difference would I see with gold diffusion versus black diffusion?

[Daniel Weber]

I do not filter on the camera much anymore now that I have Magic Bullet. I like doing any kind of correction in post if at all possible. It is cheaper and can be controlled more. I shoot as clean an image as I can and then do everything in post.

A polarizer and graduated ND and needed items, but for diffusion and the like, do it in post.

Daniel Weber

[Shaun Roemich]

Originally Posted by Jason McCormy

What do you all recommend for an interview, indoors with great lighting, to remove any facial blemishes?

I recommend flatter lighting (1 stop key to fill ratio or less) with soft light sources. Also, if you have time and a willing participant ahead of time, try playing with the skin detail settings in the camera rather than adding filters, IMHO.

[James Lilly]

Jason is obsessed with filters.

You can do an enormous amount in post. If your willing to spend the time with it, you can turn wrinkles and blemishes into wonderful skin with some editing and proper lighting. For the filters, unless you want something really different, don't go beyond .5 for diffusion. That way your image stays really intact for post work.

[Ryan Avery]

Originally Posted by Jason McCormy

Well, the Cavision filters arrived.

I spent the weekend comparing them with the three Tiffen 4x4 filters I have shooting primarily outdoor shots. They are not bad. At one time they may have been junk, but it seems their quality is up to the point of fairly decent. They seem to block a little more light than the equivalent Tiffens, and the polarizing filter while not bad isn't that great, for roughly 45 dollars it is actually pretty good.

The gradient filters are not that abrupt in their change. So over all, while not the best filters they are more than decent and will suit me for some of the more interesting shots I'm doing.

So now, I think I'm going to invest in a couple of really good filters. Either Tiffen or, as I am now leaning thanks to their input, Schneider filters for interviews. Specifically, it is for the head of a company. What do you all recommend for an interview, indoors with great lighting, to remove any facial blemishes? Right now I have a Tiffen Black Diffusion 1 but it seems a little strong.

Oh, and what kind of difference would I see with gold diffusion versus black diffusion?

I would not use anything more than a 1/4 strength of any "black" filter. Our Black Frost is good for this use. Most shooters use either 1/4 or 1/8 strengths.

Remember that there are three parts to diffusion filtration.

1) Resolution. This is the HD Classic Soft filter which effects only the resolution of the image creating two planes of focus on the image while not affecting eye detail. It accomplishes this by having small micro lenses which focus some of the light at one plane while letting other light through at the normal focus. This is a truly an exceptional affect and the single most requested diffusion filter in Hollywood.

2) Contrast. This is the separation of black vs white tones in the image. Certain filters will affect the black levels or the highlights. A good diffusion filter which affects contrast will create a soft glow to the image as well as affect high frequency details. The Black Frost filter will do this without overly affecting your black tones (does not make them "milky"). We also offer our Digicon filter which will reduce highlights by one stop thus avoiding the dreaded blown out clouds or hot lights as well as increase black levels by one stop gaining back your no detail blacks.

3) Halation. This is the affect where highlights have a blooming affect and everything looks kind of dreamy. White Frost filters accomplish this look.

Overall, a bad diffusion filter (either optical or in post) will affect all of these aspects at once. There are several out there that do this including post production filters. Softening filters that employ a screen will affect more than one of the three parts of diffusion and not give you the controlled look you want.

Schneider offers each type of filter specifically for the look you are going for. Most people want to affect only resolution which will in turn maintain eye detail and not make everything over softened; hence they use the Classic Soft. You can do this in post with hours of work. Or you could just throw a filter in your matte box. Either way it can be done.

Ultimately, it is all about image control. How you choose to do it is a personal decision but filters, if used properly, can save you a ton of time and effort. Poor filter technique, either in post or optically, can lead to unprofessional footage.

Ryan Avery
Schneider Optics