I still don't get it..... at DVinfo.net

John Harbor · February 10th, 2009, 10:20 PM

I don't know....maybe I'm just a Dumba................

I have looked at so many of your film clips etc you all have linked here, and I just still can't work it out.....

I still get jittery strobey vision through the veiwfinder and panasonic focus assist monitor.

I am using a 200U, 720/25p with a 50th shutter and it looks crap with any camera movements slow fast up down its all the same.
It looks about 500% better if I use 720/50p with 50th shutter, but is that the right way to shoot ?
Its mainly Outdoor Doco material I am shooting, so sometimes it will be difficult to pan with some action to cover it.....
I am still to shoot anything, as I am just not game to waste a budget on something that will look like flicking through a kids anaimation seqence on the edge of a phone book......

Please help.........or do I simply need to go to another format and camera.........hoping not to though.

Also even when I set everything in the camera to 720/25p , the 7.9" panasonic HD focus assit montor, still displays the signal as 720/50p ?????? why ?????? (using component to feed the monitor)

Thanks guys...... I will sit down and count to 10 now......1 , 2 , 3.......................;)

John Harbor · February 10th, 2009, 11:16 PM

In my frustration, I just changed camera's.........
I also have a 111E that I brought as a backup camera, so I just canged it all over to that body.
Such a huge difference, much less Jitter, in fact on 720/25p its all but un-noticable.
I also notice the white balance is different, the 200U will balance up at 4.2k and the 111E, same lighting will balace at 5.6k, which is correct...........

I am guessing there is something wrong............

the panasonic 7.9" monitor though, still senses 720/50p input, which the 111E cannot do ????

Sugestions............... or hand me the hammer ;)

Adam Letch · February 10th, 2009, 11:32 PM

can you upload a small wmv or something to show what you mean, without viewing what your seeing it's hard to give a quantative answer. It may be the footage you percieving as excessive flicker is standard 25p flicker?

cheers

Adam

John Harbor · February 10th, 2009, 11:50 PM

Hi adam, I will try and put some up in the next day of so....My edit suite is off line literally at the moment, so I can't upload anything
The 111e is so much better............ even with the smooth motion off, its good.
the amount of flicker is what I would expect.
The 200 is awful, and improves when you get to 1000th of a second shutter, but running 50th its awful.
another thing I noticed on the 200U is if you switch the camera to "1080i Camera" and view the component output It is so bad you are lucky to see 3 or 4 frames in a slow pan over 1 second.
Its very strange......... set the camera's up side by side, 720/25p on both, and the 111e is 500% better than the 200u same monitor same everything. I am bamboozled.

John Harbor · February 11th, 2009, 01:31 AM

I just recorded a bit to Tape and HDD.
Still looks very Strobey and jittery on Play back, even with very very slow pans and tilts.
Even following my daughter walking along, the strobing is very distracting.
Its is definately heaps better just looking through the camera, but even with a slow pan it looks fairly crappy on the VF and Panasonic Focus Assist, on playback.
Both Tape and HDD are the same.
I am going to look at the output of the tape on a different monitor and HD Deck and see if its better.

Werner Wesp · February 11th, 2009, 04:23 AM

What you see in the viewfinder of your 111 is 50p. What he outputs on component is 50p as well - that's why it looks good on your pana monitor. If you record it though, you'll record 25p.
Only thing I can say to perfect shooting 25p : prcatice, practice, practice, ...

John Harbor · February 11th, 2009, 05:14 AM

Thanks Werner,
That explains a lot to me....I can stop pulling my hair out now.
I just couldnt understand why it looked so good on the VF and Focus assist monitor, but looked crappy as, on the replay.
Can anyone give me a quick primer on how to minimise the effect.
I have done a bit of a search, but its scattered around a bit to much to get anything to sink in.......all the clips and trailers on this site look so good compared to what I am getting at the moment.
I know, Paning fast is out, and its best to follow a moving element in the frame to distract the viewer from the effect, but other than adding 50th of shutter in my case, what else can I do ?

Stuart Campbell · February 11th, 2009, 06:06 AM

John,

We have 2 200s and they are always in use in 25p 50 shutter. As an example we filmed a commercial for the military and had a load of helicopters buzz us a few weeks ago. We can track the moving objects fine, yeah you get the stutter you expect when shooting in progressive HD, but it's still more than acceptable.

You really do have to eliminate the fundamentals of shooting video from your tool box when shooting progressive. Think more like film. There are tons of guides out there which will help you, such as techniques panning speed charts etc.

It really sounds to me like something is wrong. either you've got some weird setting dialled in or you have a fault.

For anyone here to give you a definitive answer or bit of advice you really do need to upload a sample of the footage you are not happy with and detailed description of your settings.

Have you tried using a different monitor yet? View it via a composite output on the camera? What are you using to playback the dodgy footage? Have you tried playing the tape back in a VTR for example?

John Harbor · February 11th, 2009, 06:15 AM

Thanks Stuart,
I have been shooting DVCPro50 and This is just so different.
I have no doubt it is operator error in some way, either incorrect setting or bad technique shooting wise for sure.
The 200 may have a fault, as it looks totally different from the 111 with all the same settings.
I will try and put up some video as soon as my office is back together.....long story ;)
I have played it out via my HD deck, and it looks similar, maybe a touch better on the different monitor tied to it, but it is still a long way short of the fantastic work I see on these boards.
Will keep mucking around and see if I can improve anything...cheers and thanks for you reply.

Stuart Campbell · February 11th, 2009, 06:19 AM

no problem John,

Everyone's here to help!

If it's as bad as it sounds I'm sure it's a fault or incorrect setting somewhere. Upload some pictures and we'll sort it out for you!

If you're like me you'll have pressed something somewhere along the line without noticing and it takes an age to figure out what you did!

Good luck.

Werner Wesp · February 11th, 2009, 06:58 AM

1) very, very, very slow pans are okay
2) crash pans are okay (very, very, very fast pas)
3) follow an object moving to minimize the intensity of the effect whenever possible
4) rule no3 is enhanced if background is out of focus, so open up your aperture a bit perhaps
5) shoot with 1/50th shutter
6) use a tripod for steady motion

I'd say just avoid medium speed camera movement. Think film is the answer indeed. Take your favorite film out of the shelf, watch it and then come back to me with how many a) pans (without an object in the frame) and b) zooms you have seen. I'm guessing it will be zero, or very close to that... (dolly shots aren't the same, they don't count as zooms).

Adopt classical film style shooting and you should be fine...

Dennis Robinson · February 13th, 2009, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Werner Wesp

1) very, very, very slow pans are okay
2) crash pans are okay (very, very, very fast pas)
3) follow an object moving to minimize the intensity of the effect whenever possible
4) rule no3 is enhanced if background is out of focus, so open up your aperture a bit perhaps
5) shoot with 1/50th shutter
6) use a tripod for steady motion

I'd say just avoid medium speed camera movement. Think film is the answer indeed. Take your favorite film out of the shelf, watch it and then come back to me with how many a) pans (without an object in the frame) and b) zooms you have seen. I'm guessing it will be zero, or very close to that... (dolly shots aren't the same, they don't count as zooms).

Adopt classical film style shooting and you should be fine...

Isn't that the truth Werner. Since you told me this method of shooting progressive I now shoot everything HDV. Your advice saved me from throwing my 111 in the ocean and now I cant believe the footage I get. It is a technique to be learned.

February 10th, 2009, 10:20 PM	#1
John Harbor Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 51	I still don't get it..... I don't know....maybe I'm just a Dumba................ I have looked at so many of your film clips etc you all have linked here, and I just still can't work it out..... I still get jittery strobey vision through the veiwfinder and panasonic focus assist monitor. I am using a 200U, 720/25p with a 50th shutter and it looks crap with any camera movements slow fast up down its all the same. It looks about 500% better if I use 720/50p with 50th shutter, but is that the right way to shoot ? Its mainly Outdoor Doco material I am shooting, so sometimes it will be difficult to pan with some action to cover it..... I am still to shoot anything, as I am just not game to waste a budget on something that will look like flicking through a kids anaimation seqence on the edge of a phone book...... Please help.........or do I simply need to go to another format and camera.........hoping not to though. Also even when I set everything in the camera to 720/25p , the 7.9" panasonic HD focus assit montor, still displays the signal as 720/50p ?????? why ?????? (using component to feed the monitor) Thanks guys...... I will sit down and count to 10 now......1 , 2 , 3.......................;)

February 10th, 2009, 11:16 PM	#2
John Harbor Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 51	In my frustration, I just changed camera's......... I also have a 111E that I brought as a backup camera, so I just canged it all over to that body. Such a huge difference, much less Jitter, in fact on 720/25p its all but un-noticable. I also notice the white balance is different, the 200U will balance up at 4.2k and the 111E, same lighting will balace at 5.6k, which is correct........... I am guessing there is something wrong............ the panasonic 7.9" monitor though, still senses 720/50p input, which the 111E cannot do ???? Sugestions............... or hand me the hammer ;) Last edited by John Harbor; February 11th, 2009 at 01:53 AM.

February 10th, 2009, 11:32 PM	#3
Adam Letch Major Player Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 414	Hey John can you upload a small wmv or something to show what you mean, without viewing what your seeing it's hard to give a quantative answer. It may be the footage you percieving as excessive flicker is standard 25p flicker? cheers Adam

February 11th, 2009, 04:23 AM	#6
Werner Wesp Major Player Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Belgium Posts: 497	What you see in the viewfinder of your 111 is 50p. What he outputs on component is 50p as well - that's why it looks good on your pana monitor. If you record it though, you'll record 25p. Only thing I can say to perfect shooting 25p : prcatice, practice, practice, ... __________________ High-Definition Video Consultant - CEO of Delimex NV - http://www.delimex.be gear of choice : http://www.wespgear.com

February 11th, 2009, 06:58 AM	#11
Werner Wesp Major Player Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Belgium Posts: 497	1) very, very, very slow pans are okay 2) crash pans are okay (very, very, very fast pas) 3) follow an object moving to minimize the intensity of the effect whenever possible 4) rule no3 is enhanced if background is out of focus, so open up your aperture a bit perhaps 5) shoot with 1/50th shutter 6) use a tripod for steady motion I'd say just avoid medium speed camera movement. Think film is the answer indeed. Take your favorite film out of the shelf, watch it and then come back to me with how many a) pans (without an object in the frame) and b) zooms you have seen. I'm guessing it will be zero, or very close to that... (dolly shots aren't the same, they don't count as zooms). Adopt classical film style shooting and you should be fine... __________________ High-Definition Video Consultant - CEO of Delimex NV - http://www.delimex.be gear of choice : http://www.wespgear.com

February 10th, 2009, 11:50 PM	#4
John Harbor Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 51	Hi adam, I will try and put some up in the next day of so....My edit suite is off line literally at the moment, so I can't upload anything The 111e is so much better............ even with the smooth motion off, its good. the amount of flicker is what I would expect. The 200 is awful, and improves when you get to 1000th of a second shutter, but running 50th its awful. another thing I noticed on the 200U is if you switch the camera to "1080i Camera" and view the component output It is so bad you are lucky to see 3 or 4 frames in a slow pan over 1 second. Its very strange......... set the camera's up side by side, 720/25p on both, and the 111e is 500% better than the 200u same monitor same everything. I am bamboozled.

February 11th, 2009, 01:31 AM	#5
John Harbor Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 51	I just recorded a bit to Tape and HDD. Still looks very Strobey and jittery on Play back, even with very very slow pans and tilts. Even following my daughter walking along, the strobing is very distracting. Its is definately heaps better just looking through the camera, but even with a slow pan it looks fairly crappy on the VF and Panasonic Focus Assist, on playback. Both Tape and HDD are the same. I am going to look at the output of the tape on a different monitor and HD Deck and see if its better.

February 11th, 2009, 05:14 AM	#7
John Harbor Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 51	Thanks Werner, That explains a lot to me....I can stop pulling my hair out now. I just couldnt understand why it looked so good on the VF and Focus assist monitor, but looked crappy as, on the replay. Can anyone give me a quick primer on how to minimise the effect. I have done a bit of a search, but its scattered around a bit to much to get anything to sink in.......all the clips and trailers on this site look so good compared to what I am getting at the moment. I know, Paning fast is out, and its best to follow a moving element in the frame to distract the viewer from the effect, but other than adding 50th of shutter in my case, what else can I do ?

February 11th, 2009, 06:06 AM	#8
Stuart Campbell Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Hannover, Germany Posts: 400	John, We have 2 200s and they are always in use in 25p 50 shutter. As an example we filmed a commercial for the military and had a load of helicopters buzz us a few weeks ago. We can track the moving objects fine, yeah you get the stutter you expect when shooting in progressive HD, but it's still more than acceptable. You really do have to eliminate the fundamentals of shooting video from your tool box when shooting progressive. Think more like film. There are tons of guides out there which will help you, such as techniques panning speed charts etc. It really sounds to me like something is wrong. either you've got some weird setting dialled in or you have a fault. For anyone here to give you a definitive answer or bit of advice you really do need to upload a sample of the footage you are not happy with and detailed description of your settings. Have you tried using a different monitor yet? View it via a composite output on the camera? What are you using to playback the dodgy footage? Have you tried playing the tape back in a VTR for example?

February 11th, 2009, 06:15 AM	#9
John Harbor Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 51	Thanks Stuart, I have been shooting DVCPro50 and This is just so different. I have no doubt it is operator error in some way, either incorrect setting or bad technique shooting wise for sure. The 200 may have a fault, as it looks totally different from the 111 with all the same settings. I will try and put up some video as soon as my office is back together.....long story ;) I have played it out via my HD deck, and it looks similar, maybe a touch better on the different monitor tied to it, but it is still a long way short of the fantastic work I see on these boards. Will keep mucking around and see if I can improve anything...cheers and thanks for you reply.

February 11th, 2009, 06:19 AM	#10
Stuart Campbell Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Hannover, Germany Posts: 400	no problem John, Everyone's here to help! If it's as bad as it sounds I'm sure it's a fault or incorrect setting somewhere. Upload some pictures and we'll sort it out for you! If you're like me you'll have pressed something somewhere along the line without noticing and it takes an age to figure out what you did! Good luck.