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Old March 18th, 2005, 11:30 PM   #31
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<<<-- Originally posted by Christopher C. Murphy : At $10,000 this won't change people's minds who were and are considering the Z1U.

All I have to say is "Data 19Mps" - a joke for $10,000. You can get a cheap $399 Mini-DV camera from Best Buy with a higher rate - 25Mps! -->>>

19Mbps is plenty of bandwidth for 720p, substantially more bandwidth than the 720p of ESPN-HD or ABC-HD, and about 1.5 times the bandwidth (relatively) of the Sony Z1.

Also, you are dealing with MPEG2, not DV. MPEG2 is around 4 times more efficient than DV, which is why 6 Mbps MPEG2 looks as good as 25 Mbps DV. Likewise 19 Mbps MPEG2 should look pretty close to DVCPROHD (a DV-based codec), all other things being equal. We should be getting pretty close to Varicam country here, with the bonus of true 1280x720 resolution. Of course, we aren't going to have 2/3" CCD's :)

The nice thing for me is that I could theoretically rent this camera for a reasonable rate ($400/day), and not have to completely overhaul all my HDV editing tools. The thing stopping me from using a Varicam is not just the rental cost of the camera, but I also have to have much heftier editing equipment and disk space. There is no DVCPROHD over firewire with the Varicam (need the special DVCPROHD deck for that), and I'm on a PC using Vegas (I don't even think Vegas can capture DVCPROHD via firewire like Final Cut Pro can). So that means I'm looking at SDI, and that puts me into another price category.

The GY-HD100 gives me the best of both worlds - a true "PRO" camera with true 720/24p, but at a bandwidth I can already handle and in a format I can already edit, and without having to go buy disk arrays. I'm in love if this thing is for real.

P.S. Didn't mean to jump on you Murph, just wanted to point out the numbers could be deceiving.

Ben
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Old March 18th, 2005, 11:52 PM   #32
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Excellent post Ben. I think that sums up my feelings to a T.

The only thing I'm not entirely sure I agree with is 6mbps MPEG2 being as good as 25mbps DV. This of course, depends highly upon your MPEG encoder, but I can usually tell a difference between my MPEG2 encoded files and the DV originals.
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Old March 19th, 2005, 12:07 AM   #33
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"19Mbps is plenty of bandwidth for 720p, substantially more bandwidth than the 720p of ESPN-HD or ABC-HD, and about 1.5 times the bandwidth (relatively) of the Sony Z1"

I've heard this comparison made before, and the problem for me is that you are comparing a delivery format with an aquisition format.

How well do you think that the HD signal sent out by ESPN-HD or ABC-HD would hold up to a postproduction workflow (ie. editing, graphics, color timing, etc).

They don't start out with less than 19Mbps, they deliver their final programming in less than 19Mbps.


Now, this doesn't mean I think the JVC camera is not a SERIOUS contender for "Camera of the Year." I just wanted to point out that I thought those numbers, while true, are not really the best comparisson.


"The GY-HD100 gives me the best of both worlds - a true "PRO" camera with true 720/24p, but at a bandwidth I can already handle and in a format I can already edit, and without having to go buy disk arrays"

I'm with you 100% on that Ben.
(although the new panasonic DVCProHD is also rearing it's head into the mix).

It's going to be an exciting year, no doubt!
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Old March 19th, 2005, 12:11 AM   #34
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<<<-- Originally posted by Aaron Shaw : Excellent post Ben. I think that sums up my feelings to a T.

The only thing I'm not entirely sure I agree with is 6mbps MPEG2 being as good as 25mbps DV. This of course, depends highly upon your MPEG encoder, but I can usually tell a difference between my MPEG2 encoded files and the DV originals. -->>>

That's why we use ProCoder :) Keep in mind the HD100 will have a hardware encoder (just like the HD10 and the Z1) which is going to be pretty spot-on (if the encoder in the HD10 was any indication, it was pretty close to perfect).

Ok, maybe I should have said 8Mbps :)

Ben
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Old March 19th, 2005, 12:18 AM   #35
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ProCorder's a great product, that's for sure! I'm quite excited about the possibilities this camera opens up. Excellent point about the hardware encoder. Can't wait till NAB - should be fascinating!
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Old March 19th, 2005, 12:23 AM   #36
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<<<-- Originally posted by Luis Caffesse : I've heard this comparison made before, and the problem for me is that you are comparing a delivery format with an aquisition format.

How well do you think that the HD signal sent out by ESPN-HD or ABC-HD would hold up to a postproduction workflow (ie. editing, graphics, color timing, etc). -->>>

Sure, if I tried to take the HD feed off of my HD cable-box, OTA receiver, or Sat receiver, it would be a nightmare. But that signal has been sent through who knows how many distribution points, at that point I'm sure the MPEG2 compression is the least of your worries.

However, if it was delivered at a full 19 Mbps (most of the time it is under 15 Mbps), I could plug directly into the source feed coming out of the originating MPEG2 encoder (instead of getting it at the end of the chain), and if I used an intermediate format to edit (like Cineform), I think it would hold up pretty well :)

<<<-- It's going to be an exciting year, no doubt! -->>>

You got that right! Did I read correctly this camera has a tentative release date of July 2005? NAB might actually amount to something this year :)

Ben
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Old March 19th, 2005, 12:33 AM   #37
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"I think it would hold up pretty well :)"

Fair enough, I guess the proof will be in the pudding.
I really hope you're right.

If not, we've still got the HDX100 to look at.


ProCoder is an excellent encoder by the way!
And fast....
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Old March 19th, 2005, 12:44 PM   #38
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And let's not forget that those expensive top-notch MPEG2 realtime encoders for digital broadcast are usually made my JVC, so they have en expertise that Sony, however good a job they did, did not have. If you sum up the fact that 4:2:0 is sweet for proscan, we will probably see far better compression with the JVC HD100 that with the Sony FX1/Z1.
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Old March 19th, 2005, 01:18 PM   #39
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I think the bottom line that newbies to HDV format should understand is:
25Mbps DV is not the same as 25(or 19)Mbps Mpeg2ts.
There are 8 years of compression technology to put into that equation. If one could see compression artifacts in the footage then there would be a problem. As far as JVC's first gen product, this wasn't the case. It had about the eqivalent artifacting as DV but at 2.5X the resolution. The new HD100 I assume will only be better.
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Old March 19th, 2005, 02:35 PM   #40
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FWIW

...on the JVC encoders, Steve Mullen states that the HD1/10 use the NTT "SuperENC" decoder/encoder chip. Not sure how that factors into the argument about JVC making more broadcast mpeg encoders or not.
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Old March 20th, 2005, 11:52 AM   #41
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<<<-- Originally posted by Joel Corral : <<<-- Originally posted by Christopher C. Murphy : At $10,000 this won't change people's minds who were and are considering the Z1U.

All I have to say is "Data 19Mps" - a joke for $10,000. You can get a cheap $399 Mini-DV camera from Best Buy with a higher rate - 25Mps! -->>>

yeah but it is avi @ 25 mbs not mpeg @ 25mbs you know more than anyone that 19mbs m2t will have a ton of more data than 25mbs avi. -->>>

By definition, no matter what the codec, 19 Mbps is always less data per unit of time than 25 Mbps. MPEG-2 is arguably a more efficient encoding scheme.
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Old March 20th, 2005, 07:17 PM   #42
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Lawrence, it is more data than 19mb but it isn't more data per pixel. We need to compare the amount of data in relation to the image size to determine how much of that data goes to each pixel.
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Old March 20th, 2005, 10:10 PM   #43
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Actually what you really need to do is compare the quality of the video output by eye. That's the true measure.

I mean, not to rant or anything (who, me rant?), but making an assumption of image quality based on numbers alone, with the actual video going sight unseen until this camera is released, there's really no way someone can say "well since it's 19mbps it can't be any good." We don't know that. And since we won't know it until we see it, there's hardly any point on making such assumptions sight unseen. Right?
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Old March 21st, 2005, 03:51 AM   #44
 
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The question here fellas is if the component out is pre-compression. If it is, it should provide opportunities unheard of for 10 k. I assume the firewire out won't be pre compression (or the composite, but who cares on that).

Pre-compression output would make this competitive with the high-end systems. That's the tantelizing possibility. Hey, if not, Panny's got us covered with DVCProHD 4:2:2 100Mbps.
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Old March 21st, 2005, 10:00 AM   #45
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Were talking about that here.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&postid=289570#post289570
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