"Dead pixel" mystery solved at DVinfo.net

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Old August 13th, 2005, 02:19 PM   #1
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"Dead pixel" mystery solved

Page 9 of the new HD100U manual, available to everyone online at the JVC web site as of 8/10/05, clearly explains the “mysterious” white pixel phenomena that many posters are discussing. Read Page 9, Characteristic CCD Phenomena, White Dots:

“High temperatures can cause CCD sensor panels to produce the effect of white dots in the image. This condition is conspicuous especially when gain is applied. This is characteristic of the charge-coupled device (CCD). As far as possible, use the unit under conditions where the temperature of the unit does not increase.”

Mystery solved. So it is not “burned out pixels”, “defective CCD's”, “dropouts”, etc. Indeed, in almost every post I've seen on this board and others about “dead pixels”, the user has boosted the gain to 18db to even see them. In 30 years of professional shooting in every analog and digital format available, I can count the times I've used 18db gain for my professional productions on one hand. When you boost the gain to 18db on most cameras you will find “white spots”, snow, and artifacts. Why would any professional shoot 720p24 or 720p30 footage at 18db anyway?

Perhaps the camera Barry Green used at NAB had been powered up in the indoor environment for hours, and thus it had accumulated some heat. Even then, if Barry had to go to 18db to see the “white dots”; that's not especially troubling to me.

Before everyone does a “tecnno-lemming” thing, and rushes over the “I told you so” cliff, I'd suggest that we give this camera a chance. When it has been shot using the extensive menus (check the manual), by seasoned DPs, in every condition possible, then professionals can BEGIN to draw educated opinions on the camera's performance envelope.

On another board, a poster from Scotland reported that the JVC representative stated that there is a self-repair set up in menu for “dead pixels”. I'd be surprised it the HD100/101 doesn't have such an auto-fix function in conjunction with the black balance function.

I should have my HD100U this week, and as promised to Barry Green, I'll make a trip to Las Vegas so we can jointly put it through its paces, indoors and out, using all the menu options, and accessories.

Again - the mysterious white spots are not dead pixels

HD100U manual link: http://books.jvcservice.com/booklist...odel=gy-hd100u
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Old August 13th, 2005, 03:27 PM   #2
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Thanks a bunch for that report, Steve, and I've perma-linked the owner's manual at the top of this forum's index page. Please do report the experiences that you and Barry have with this camera; and as I've mentioned in another thread, I have plenty of bandwidth for hosting some choice video clips here if you're inclined to share them. Thanks again,
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Old August 13th, 2005, 04:50 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Gibby
Before everyone does a “tecnno-lemming” thing, and rushes over the “I told you so” cliff, I'd suggest that we give this camera a chance. When it has been shot using the extensive menus (check the manual), by seasoned DPs, in every condition possible, then professionals can BEGIN to draw educated opinions on the camera's performance envelope.
Check the manual! You couldn't have given better advice. I don't how many times I get read/get questions that indicate the manual has never been read. As an ex-teacher this is one of those "dog ate my homework" excuses. Actually it's worse -- I can't tell you how many men boast they "did it" without reading the manual! It's a bad part of our culture. Plus the "why read it because when I have a qustion I'll just post a question and some kind soul will rush me an answer."

BUT -- the manufactures have an equal, if not greater, responsibility. Most of their manuals are worth nothing because clearly the Japanese engineer doesn't understand the actual USE of the product. Then we have a writer who takes Japanese and turns it to English who understands nothing about use or technology.

Moreover, to a post on another site Ken Freed yelled "You people are idiots."

Gee, and I thought I was an SOB.

The fact is, that JVC sent the HD1/HD10 out to reviewers with ZERO information on HOW TO SHOOT PROGRESSIVE and they got nearly 100% negative reviews. This negative reputation continues to reverberate.

Every major software company sends a reviewers kit. Has JVC learned a lesson?

Has it written a manual that truly explains HOW/WHEN to use their Motion Filter?

I'm about to read it. Why do I suspect, after reading the HD1/HD10/FX1/Z1,DVX100 manuals I'll not find much useable information. :)
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Old August 14th, 2005, 10:04 AM   #4
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With all due respect

I begin to lose faith in a discussion board when I see statements that implore me to "give the camera a chance".

What is the motivation for a comment like that, other than emotion? I'm here trying to make a camera decision. I really don't care what sort of personality issues take place. It reads pretty juvenille and is a waste of time.

I've owned JVCs since the KY-25, and to be quite frank, there have been more than a few times that their chips were the source of problems. I am certainly not biased against JVC. I own a GY-DV700 today.... it's wonderful, but I don't have to worry about going to a shoot on a 100 degree day.

You can say that the pixel dropout (is that a new technical term now?) is only visible under extreme conditions, and to that I will just make these two points: 1 - We need to know what those conditions are. JVC should not be content with the generic warning. Let's see some data and conditions that produce these pixel dropouts, and make users aware. 2 - This sort of performance issue makes me wonder how stable these chips are and if the condition is repeated, can a pixel dropout eventually become a pixel failure.

No, I don't make a habit of shooting at +18db, and I also don't drive my car 100mph. But I would be concerned if Chevy had a small warning in their user manual that said a wheel might fall off if I "go fast".
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Old August 14th, 2005, 10:27 AM   #5
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Marty, what we mean by "give the camera a chance" is that it would be a serious mistake to damn the camera based on a couple of initial reports. Let's wait until we hear about things like extensive testing, experienced professionals, side by side comparisons, mainstream integration, things like that.

Bad news *always* travels fast. Too many people treat the internet like some kind of police department. Nobody calls the police to say they're having a nice day. All they ever get are complaints about problems. In many ways this is how the internet tends to operate. The problem is that this is a skewed approach; a handful of early reports is NOT really indicative of what the camera is really like.

DV Info Net is like no other discussion board in that we're primarily interested in the empirical data and the hard evidence that goes into a technical evaluation. I don't know what your definition of that process is, but around here, we don't jump to conclusions based only on first reports from a mere scattering of users. Those reports are much appreciated and strongly encouraged, but we urge our readers not to jump to conclusions from them. That's what we mean by "giving the camera a chance" -- waiting until more data is collected from more field reports. After all, it's the intelligent thing to do. Hope this helps,
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Old August 14th, 2005, 10:47 AM   #6
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The frustration

Chris... I appreciate your input, and you have my admiration for shepherding this board.

You make my point. Empirical data and unbiased field-testing should be the foundation of boards like this.

It just becomes tedious when people get emotional about their positions and become motivated by the need to be the smartest guy in the room.

10 years ago, if you decided to buy a camera, you pretty much had to trust what the manufacturer claimed, perhaps find a colleague that made a purchase and is using the unit, and then read one... maybe two reviews within a year or so of its release. These boards are a fantastic tool, but the purpose is defeated if they breakdown into the "JVC Camp" vs the "Sony Camp" and so on. If I want to be sold on a camera, I can go to the manufacturer's website.

Thanks again for your ringleadership.
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Old August 14th, 2005, 11:20 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marty Baggen
These boards are a fantastic tool, but the purpose is defeated if they breakdown into the "JVC Camp" vs the "Sony Camp" and so on.
That's always been one of the major challenges here -- to always insure that we're an "equal opportunity" message board. And I think we've succeeded quite well. Each of our camcorder-specific areas at DV Info, whether they're Sony, Panasonic, Canon or JVC, are either the largest or second-largest discussion groups in the world for that particular make and model. A quick look around our community quickly reveals that we clearly have no particular bias for or against any manufacturer. We concentrate on the user experience, and we have a pretty firm rule about our various Ford & Chevy, Gibson & Fender advocates staying on their own turf here... for example, we don't allow Brand X evangelists to hang out in our Brand Y boards to try to talk people out of Brand Y. Instead we place a high value on a pre-purchase researcher's ability to draw their own conclusions. To my eye, nothing is more insulting to the intelligence of a casual reader than to have a hard-core cheerleader screaming "you must buy this! that other thing is junk!" -- but sadly, this is exactly what transpires on other some message boards. However I guarantee you'll never see that shameful practice here.
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Old August 14th, 2005, 11:41 AM   #8
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Well, again... I think it is very admirable the way you conduct the board and quickly mediate any of those pesky transgressions of which you speak.
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Old August 14th, 2005, 02:04 PM   #9
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Marty,

“I begin to lose faith in a discussion board when I see statements that implore me to "give the camera a chance".

What is the motivation for a comment like that, other than emotion? I'm here trying to make a camera decision. I really don't care what sort of personality issues take place. It reads pretty juvenille and is a waste of time.”

Since you brought up my motivation, I’ll address that. The motivation is reason and experience, rather than emotion. Emotion brings snap decisions. Reason and experience seeks more data. My statement is a rational response to the emotional, limited-data responses from the instant critics of the HD100 that have peppered online tech chat rooms in the past week. I’m the guy who took the time to find the new HD100 manual, read all 91 pages of it, then tip off the online world in multiple tech chat rooms to its availability. That sound like a pragmatic tech guy, not some “emotional” knee-jerk reaction person. Right? The guy you’re labeling “juvenile” (me) is a 57 year old veteran of 30 years of national television production, including contributing as an executive producer, producer, director, editor, and cameraman to over 700 national television programs that aired on 12 different broadcast and cable networks. I’ve received multiple Emmy Awards, over fifty national awards, I’m a national and regional Emmy judge, and I write UNBIASED camera tech articles for several national television trade magazines. Juvenile?

“I've owned JVCs since the KY-25, and to be quite frank, there have been more than a few times that their chips were the source of problems. I am certainly not biased against JVC. I own a GY-DV700 today.... it's wonderful, but I don't have to worry about going to a shoot on a 100 degree day.”

I’ve owned JVCs since 1979. I’ve also owned, and currently own cameras from Sony, Panasonic, and Canon. I work regularly in every format from HDCAM down to DV. I currently own a GY-DV500, which has given me excellent service for numerous national television programs. Given that good service from the DV500, should it come as a surprise to you that I said “give the camera (HD100) a chance”? If your DV700 has given you the service you claim shouldn’t you also be saying the same thing: “give the HD100 a chance”? Not emotionally, but rationally…

“You can say that the pixel dropout (is that a new technical term now?) is only visible under extreme conditions, and to that I will just make these two points: 1 - We need to know what those conditions are. JVC should not be content with the generic warning. Let's see some data and conditions that produce these pixel dropouts, and make users aware. 2 - This sort of performance issue makes me wonder how stable these chips are and if the condition is repeated, can a pixel dropout eventually become a pixel failure.”

I couldn’t agree more! JVC needs to step up and explain the issue in depth. To their credit, they did note the white spot issue in the manual. If there’s a problem with the CCDs in this first batch of cameras, JVC needs to address the problem quickly, and solve it.

“No, I don't make a habit of shooting at +18db, and I also don't drive my car 100mph. But I would be concerned if Chevy had a small warning in their user manual that said a wheel might fall off if I "go fast"”

Give JVC credit. They did address it in the manual. Have you followed the link and read the entire manual – all 91 pages? Since you mention a car, have you ever seen a car manual that wasn’t absolutely riddled with operational, equipment, and tech warnings? How many new models of cars get by without some recalls, re-designing, etc? Why do you expect a new camera to be flawless? How many cameras that have been released in the past 15 years have not had first-model tech issues? Almost none…

”You make my point. Empirical data and unbiased field-testing should be the foundation of boards like this.”

I’m the tech and data-oriented person who a) found the manual b) read the whole manual c) observed JVCs warning about “white spots” d) took the time to tip off multiple tech chat boards to the availability of the manual for users to read e) offered to team up with my good friend Barry Green to extensively field test the camera as soon as I get it (Note: Barry Green took no offense at my comments about his observations. We’ve been friends for years. We both sat at the same table and received separate Emmy Awards on the same night a few years ago) I’m all about “empirical data and unbiased field-testing, and if you weren’t new to this Board (4 posts) you would be aware of that.

”It just becomes tedious when people get emotional about their positions and become motivated by the need to be the smartest guy in the room.”

I addressed the supposed “emotional” issue above. As for the “smartest guy in the room”, I could care less about being that. The nature of true knowledge is that the more you learn, the more you should realize you don’t know. I got nothing to prove. I outlined my background to you above. My only “motivation” for posting on tech boards is a desire to mentor others or share new info, data, or experience – networking plain and simple. I like being on the cutting edge of affordable technology. There’s no ego problem here – just a desire to share, learn, and give back to the industry that has been real good to me.

”10 years ago, if you decided to buy a camera, you pretty much had to trust what the manufacturer claimed, perhaps find a colleague that made a purchase and is using the unit, and then read one... maybe two reviews within a year or so of its release. These boards are a fantastic tool, but the purpose is defeated if they breakdown into the "JVC Camp" vs the "Sony Camp" and so on. If I want to be sold on a camera, I can go to the manufacturer's website.”

This forum is the JVC HD100 forum. People who are interested in learning and posting about the HD100 post here. DV Info Net has boards for about every other camera on the planet. So do the other tech chat boards. Yeah, there are people who are only interested in one camera manufacturer, but I’m not one of them. As noted above, throughout a 30-year career I’ve owned and rented cameras from EVERY manufacturer. I am probably the LEAST BIASED television professional on the planet. Besides using all manufacturers cameras, I use nearly every format, including HDCAM, DVCProHD, DVCPro50/25, Beta SP, DigiBeta, DVCAM, HDV, and DV.

I could care less what camera someone buys or don’t buy. Opinions are like noses – everybody has one. I receive no support or funds from any equipment manufacturer, and I don’t intend to in the future.

Next time you criticize someone on this board, or any other, I think you better take the time to a) know who you’re criticizing b) what their background is c) what their historical tech approach has been d) what their intentions were in posting e) realize that when you’re new to a board its not a good idea to slam a regular board user that is well-respected by the other longtime users.
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Old August 14th, 2005, 04:59 PM   #10
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Read it for what its worth : my experience so far is that I found it very difficult to see the white spots, only under the 18dB and none less. It occurred only after the camera had been on for about 30 minutes. The conditions were : inside 20 degrees.
I am not to worried about it, as long as it gets no worse and we are only going to find that out through long testing probably...
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Old August 14th, 2005, 05:19 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Gibby
Marty,

“I begin to lose faith in a discussion board when I see statements that implore me to "give the camera a chance".

Next time you criticize someone on this board, or any other, I think you better take the time to a) know who you’re criticizing b) what their background is c) what their historical tech approach has been d) what their intentions were in posting e) realize that when you’re new to a board its not a good idea to slam a regular board user that is well-respected by the other longtime users.

All in total, why not at least let the camera hit the street before it is condemmed. Just simply makes no sense to shelve it before that.

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Old August 14th, 2005, 05:35 PM   #12
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It seems to me that DVinfo.net is not fair to JVC. Where is the JVC SD discussion section? I count 2 sony 2 panasonic and 4 canon but no jvc. I just bought the DV5100 and is nowhere for me to post. I also got the $2K coupon and i have no choice but to get the HD100. I only need DV for now and i'm looking forward to any reviews covering Sd performance of Hd100.
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Old August 14th, 2005, 05:57 PM   #13
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Hi Chris,

I don't think you can say that we're "not fair to JVC" considering that we have the single largest discussion forum on the planet that's devoted specifically to their GY-HD1 and JY-HD10 series HDV camcorders:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?f=74

Here at DV Info Net, when it comes to deciding what type of camcorders we discuss, we leave that to our readership. If our members discuss a particular piece of equipment or software, only after those discussions are going (and growing) do we create a specific message board. We only meet demands, we don't create them.

The reason why we don't have one for the JVC shoulder-mounts such as the GY-DV5100, DV5000 and DV500 is because there's already an excellent one, in fact, the largest and most popular in the world devoted to those cameras, operated by my friend Mike Martin. It's called the Fast Forward Club, and the link to their camcorder section is:

http://fastforwardclub.com/v-web/bul...dex.php?c=1004

You should run, not walk, over to that message board and tell Mike I said hello. You'll be in good company with plenty of fellow JVC owners over there.

If we don't have what you're looking for at DV Info Net, we'll tell you where to find it. Hope this helps,
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Old August 14th, 2005, 06:05 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Basmas
It seems to me that DVinfo.net is not fair to JVC. Where is the JVC SD discussion section? I count 2 sony 2 panasonic and 4 canon but no jvc. I just bought the DV5100 and is nowhere for me to post. I also got the $2K coupon and i have no choice but to get the HD100. I only need DV for now and i'm looking forward to any reviews covering Sd performance of Hd100.

I don't see DVInfo.net as being biased in any direction. I see it in general as being just honest, with a few members going outside the lines. Chris runs a great forum, and is honest in his evals.

I have been a JVC fan since my first VCR over 25 years ago, with a long wired remote bought used, but you have to evaluate each item on its own merit. I have a JVC JY-HD10U, and two Canon XL1s's, very different cameras. Do I wish the JY-HD10U was better, damn right, am I going to get rid of it right now--NO! If you check the posts here, you will find one on the JY-HD10U called "Would you buy one again." And, after all the bad complaining posts on this camera, most in this post were about, in total, how good it was, you just needed to figure out how to use it. It is a tool, and a step forward to the future, and deserves its due.

So give all of the cameras their due, and try to be non-bias. Almost every camera has its nitch, and its problems. Do I wish an accepted platform could be established, damn right! Do I wish they all were great, damn right. But, that never will happen----NO!

Mike
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Old August 14th, 2005, 06:48 PM   #15
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I think DVInfo.net is the most *unbiased* forum in existence. Chris is always exceptionally generous to the manufacturers, and their offerings and technologies.

The whole point of DVInfo.net is that it's a place where like-minded individuals can come and discuss things of interest, without the flame-bait and bias that is common on many sites. It's probably the classiest, high-level, even-minded community out there.
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