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Old September 14th, 2005, 06:27 AM   #31
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Not one singel cam should have a split screen att 0 gain, right? It seems to be quite plenty of them.

If the split screen at 0 gain is just considerd as a limitation on some of the cams, JVC should say it in the specification for those cams.

By our new pro cam, it has a split screen effect when shoting indoor!!!


Despite this, I am very happy with this cam, its a winner!
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Old September 14th, 2005, 09:21 AM   #32
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While DV was going through its infancy, I was shooting Beta SP, so this is my first experience at being an very interested spectator in the release of a new acquisition technology. Keep in mind also, that the presence of things like this very discussion forum have certainly changed how products meet their introduction to the marketplace.

I am posting from the perspective of one who is from the broadcast field, and is only a "for what it's worth" musing. It is certainly not intended to slight any manufacturer or user.

As a spectator, it has been astonishing to me, the level of acceptance of fundamental shortcomings of newly released equipment, and along those lines, it is shocking how many posts I read from folks that say something to the effect of "I have an important client shoot next week, I hope my (fill in the blank) camera arrives in time!"

It then dawned on me that I had a similar attitude when I came to release of new post production technology. I was willing to dive headfirst into the latest promise from AVID or any other maker, only to have "limitations" revealed to me as I proceeded down the road.

So as I connect these dots, it seems more and more, the videography world now treats acquisition as an extension of post-production. On its face, you may think... "of course, that only makes sense because nowadays, the camcorder is pretty much an analog-to-digital interface between the image to the hard drive to the monitor."

While that may be true, I believe the camera needs to maintain its special place in the chain. Its performance forever dictates the ability of that production chain.

The computer hardware and software world is used to "patches", "workarounds", "updates". It is sad to see the camera get sucked into the same category. It somehow immunizes the manufacturer from getting it right the first time. In the world of hardware/software, I think it is excusable because of the myriad of interactions we demand of it.... but a camera, is a camera. It functions in its own world. Certainly it must provide a means of getting data to postproduction, but that is another part in the chain.

When equipment makers are excusing serious design flaws within a format that isn't all that solid, to which there is no delivery path, I have to snap out of my trance. Yes Hi-Def is a romantic notion and it is of course where the future is, but I think I want the future to get just a little bit closer.
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Old September 14th, 2005, 09:58 AM   #33
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Marty, I feel you've described the biggest difference between pro and prosumer.

Real pro gear has spent time in testing in the field before release. Lots of it. The standard is higher for image quality, but also for ergonomics and durability.

Prosumer takes more of a "oh well" approach to durability, ergonomics, etc. "Oh well, it mostly works".
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Old September 14th, 2005, 11:02 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate Weaver
Marty, I feel you've described the biggest difference between pro and prosumer.
...so, why does JVC call the format ProHD again?
:-)

On another note; everybody seems to agree that the gain on this camera is very grainy, compared to the SONY cameras and others. So, are we also excusing that 'limitation'? If so, then we have accepted two serious flaws and many seem to be giving the manufacturer the go ahead focusing on the good things about this camera. We all have a tendency to 'see' what we want to and be deaf to 'limitations'.

So, let's see:
1. Split screen
2. Poor gain function
3. Chromatic aberation
4. Poor battery performance
5. Bad microphone

This is just a quick list drawn out of memory and based solely on complaints listed here by people who already have the camera and did some quick test.

We all make compromises. Yes, the lens is not perfect but for the money it's probably acceptable for most. We all discussed ways of using IDX or Anton Bauer batteries instead of those supplied by JVC. Most serious shooters will spend another $500-800 for a good on-board microphone. Well, let me tally this up: by the time we get another power system and the mike added to the package, we are looking at some $1,500-2,000 over the price of the camera. Well then, shouldn't we expect flawless performance within the published specs?

The other though that comes to mind is this: JVC in their early marketing mentioned news gathering quite a few times as their market. I realize that the crowd on this discussion board is mostly interested in film making but should the camera be accepted by news organizations and shooters it'd better perform well at high gains!
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Old September 14th, 2005, 11:51 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiri Bakala
...so, why does JVC call the format ProHD again?
:-)
Er, well, the first lesson in film/video production is that products that say "Pro" in them usually aren't!

There's enough notable exceptions though, that we tend to overlook.
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Old September 14th, 2005, 04:00 PM   #36
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Well, then, name 1 other prosumer camcorder with this kind of manual lens and this layout (gee, gee, the same of every...)
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Old September 14th, 2005, 04:14 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner Wesp
Well, then, name 1 other prosumer camcorder with this kind of manual lens and this layout (gee, gee, the same of every...)
The Canon XL H1 was announced today. It has SDI HD out as well as TC IN/OUT and Genlock, but it is 1080i and will do 24F and 30F, not 24P, 30P.
The speculation is that "F" is their way of doing Sony's Cineframe mode on the Z1.
List price $9000 US.
One thing about Canon though is that they are well known for their glass. I hope they have a HD manual servo lens solution though. I do like actual manual focus instead of infinity rings.

http://consumer.usa.canon.com/ir/con...&modelid=12152
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Old September 14th, 2005, 04:21 PM   #38
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Again, no real manual lens...

Canon still hasn't changed the horrible ergonomics... just now JVC has shown the way....

$9000 is in the 'pro'-range, by whitch I mean: no video enthousiasts here... And canon has never had experience with real pro-camcorders (except for their lens-industry of course)... Bald move. I'm not buying a camcorder at that price with such a lens... (even as the image is fine, the control(s) on the lens are horrible - I've use the XL's many years....)

Last edited by Werner Wesp; September 14th, 2005 at 05:18 PM.
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Old September 14th, 2005, 04:38 PM   #39
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Speaking of Pro...

How about 'Pro'-hibition. Please No... ;)

It's like what was stated - it's a meager price point for what it is overall and by way of comparison to the bigger industry pieces - with very similar emulation. I've jumped in to play and experiment for the next 1/2 year, waiting to see what '06 begins to offer, be it the JVC HD7000, or rumors of an '07 P2 Varicam. My hope is that acquisition of these smaller tools will actually attract business that will pay for the newer bigger/better guys when they're ready.

BTW, the split effect I've seen is under considerable low-light scenarios - so low that you probably wouldn't be shooting much of anything with any camera. I was posting initially with moderate concern, because it sounded like it was a known defect, by which some had it and some didn't and that you needed to swap out. I'm satisfied with the clarification for now - having held and played with the cam for 1/2 week.

The way it has been described, now in and out of the forum, is that the outstanding issue is almost a non-issue if you're aware of your conditions, and it will still be resolved via firmware soon, at no cost. We'll have to wait and see overall, but even this hint sounds like an excellent update path they may have created for this cam - be it this one in a month, or for overall honing they offer well down the road.

I've never seen anything but excellent images under ample, decent & good light, and if I'm forced to be in something low, I know that I'll have to consider how I'm shooting, be it with lights, or the added functionality within the menus (stretch blacks, gamma, shutter, gain, etc).

I'm keeping both of mine.
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Old September 14th, 2005, 05:35 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael Widerberg
Remember, the split screen problem is not just a problem when using gain. Its there at 0 gain as well.

Ken dosent seem to be awhere of that.
What I understood, by what I have been reading of people who is dealing with JVC, is that if it's visible at 0db, then it's not aceptable and you can bring your camera back, and they will replace it with a new one. Many don't have the split screen at 0db.
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Old September 14th, 2005, 05:36 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Roark
"not a defect as much as it is a limitation"

Wow! Ken, don't worry about losing your job, with comments like this you could always find a job at the White House.

"Now keep in mind, sometimes people will take something wrong or they read what they want to read "

Of course they will, I must be one of those ignorant few because here's what I got out of it:

1. There is no defect.
2. We are working on fixing the non-defective issue.
3. If you want quality, buy a Panasonic Varicam.
4. So far, everyone who put down $6000 is a Beta Tester.

I'm not trying to pounce on Ken, he's caught between a rock and a hard place, and his support of the DV500 has been much appreciated. But, I got the impression that owners are being told that they expected too much for their measily $6000. When did we stop being customers and start being beta testers?

Steve

Well, I guess Ken is really right. Everybody reads what he wants to read.
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Old September 14th, 2005, 05:53 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn Alyasiri
BTW, the split effect I've seen is under considerable low-light scenarios - so low that you probably wouldn't be shooting much of anything with any camera.
I was thinking about the very same thing. Since I didn't see the split in the night shot done by Charles/Nate/Barry with the Mini35, I was thinking, maybe it's only there in really, really low light, almost no light shots. There wasn't a split at all and in that shot, and it was a night shot with the lens wide open.
Now if you want to use the camera as a night vision device, well that's another piece of gear altogether :D
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Old September 14th, 2005, 06:05 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Maier
Now if you want to use the camera as a night vision device, well that's another piece of gear altogether :D
I am sorry Michael but this is ridiculous. Nobody is suggesting anything even close to that.

The gain function is present on every single pro or pro-sumer camera out there and it has its justification. Not only for the obvious - i.e. news gathering but also for current affairs and documentary productions. 0dB is fine but the camera HAS to perform well in at least +6 and even +9dB to be accepted widely by the news/current affairs/documentary crowd. It's not a matter of choice; sometimes we just have to shoot without lights, at night and in underlit interiors. Anyone who ever worked on a fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants doc will attest to that. It may not be my choice but it may be forced upon me by a client.

Hence, the notion of the camera being accepted back by JVC only if the defect is visible at 0dB is not satisfactory. I appreciate Ken's input here and like what I am hearing about the engineers working on a fix but I also expect the fix to make this serious problem go away on all gains under +12dB.
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Old September 14th, 2005, 06:57 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiri Bakala
I am sorry Michael but this is ridiculous. Nobody is suggesting anything even close to that.
I guess you have never heard the word "joking" :(
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Old September 14th, 2005, 07:05 PM   #45
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I agree the 0db standard is low, and you had my reason till I got to this point:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiri Bakala
It's not a matter of choice; sometimes we just have to shoot without lights, at night
If by without lights you really mean in the dark with no lights, then I'm sorry, but you really need night vision and this time I'm not joking. Cameras are not made to see in the dark. Unless you buy one of those consumer little things with the night shot feature.

The right tool for the right job:

Long distance view= Binoculars/telescope
Photography=still picture camera
Something to video/film =camcorder/camera
See in the dark= night vision
Something to video/film in the dark= Camera + night vision
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