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Old October 13th, 2005, 09:13 AM   #16
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Tim,
Many thanks for the time spent and the files. I too want to go the "digital negative" and then Post for each use (DVD, HD & Film)

When shooting with this "flat" setting, what do you use for live-preview? Since the gamma is going to be wrong on any display device what does it look like?
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Old October 15th, 2005, 07:44 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph H. Moore
Tim,
Many thanks for the time spent and the files. I too want to go the "digital negative" and then Post for each use (DVD, HD & Film)

When shooting with this "flat" setting, what do you use for live-preview? Since the gamma is going to be wrong on any display device what does it look like?
Well, if you aren't shooting to go directly to film with traditional colour timing, I would stay away from the filmout curve. It requires a completely different approach because you are linearly capturing the exposure, and then letting the final film stock introduce its own characteristic curve. There are professional HD monitors with film curve compensations built in. I think Sony and Panasonic make a couple of models. Panasonic also makes something called a "Gamma Box" for this purpose.

If you want to shoot as flat as possible for the most options in D.I., use black stretch 3, and a 80% knee. That should give you all the dynamic range this camera is capable of.
Set your zebra to 100% and make sure your highlights don't exceed it (unless you want them to.) Then, in post, colour correct your HD and SD versions independent of your D.I. for film blowup. Most of the high-end D.I. suites have LUTs (look up tables) built in for various print film stocks so you can work in a digitial WYSIWYG environment.
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Old October 28th, 2005, 10:47 AM   #18
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On the setup issue, is the setup applied to NTSC analog out when shooting either HDV or DV? I want to be sure I fully understand this as there has been so much confusion on this in the past. I believe my PDX-10 is in the offending "adds setup to 1394" catagory.

So what I am asking then is this:
when shooting DV or HDV, the 1394 output has no setup added and the analog outputs do, for both HDV and DV, correct?

I will be shooting with the new JVC this weekend. Just test footage to help decide on the workflow here at the day job.

Thanks for the work. I sent this thread off to our camera expert, in case we need to match the 100a and the JVC at some point.

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Old October 28th, 2005, 11:32 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean McHenry
On the setup issue, is the setup applied to NTSC analog out when shooting either HDV or DV? I want to be sure I fully understand this as there has been so much confusion on this in the past. I believe my PDX-10 is in the offending "adds setup to 1394" catagory.

So what I am asking then is this:
when shooting DV or HDV, the 1394 output has no setup added and the analog outputs do, for both HDV and DV, correct?

I will be shooting with the new JVC this weekend. Just test footage to help decide on the workflow here at the day job.

Thanks for the work. I sent this thread off to our camera expert, in case we need to match the 100a and the JVC at some point.

Sean McHenry
The 7.5 setup option adds setup to the analog output when in NTSC mode, but I can't confirm if it does the same in HD mode. 7.5 setup is strictly a North American NTSC thing (Japanese NTSC doesn't use it) so I assume that it has no effect on 720P analog out, but I can't confirm it since I don't have a HD analog scope. I have only scoped analog downconverted NTSC.
The HD100 never adds 7.5 setup to 1394 output in any case, but it looks like the DVX100A does (even though it shouldn't.)
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Old February 10th, 2006, 07:08 PM   #20
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100% Accurate. I forgot to change the 7.5 setup back to 0 and the picture was pure mud!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mitchell
Not when recorded to DV according to Adam (because the 601 specs even in North America call for 0 IRE) - only when OUTPUT from a DV camera/deck in analogue should the 7.5 setup be added. It should never be recorded in a digital format. At least that's my understanding of what Adam is saying. If you do record 7.5 setup in digital, you are muddying the signal for no reason.

Of course real world situations may differ, but it sounded reasonable to me. And I don't work in NTSC North America so I don't have to worry about it ;-)
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Old February 17th, 2006, 04:17 AM   #21
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Thanks for providing your test results.

I'm preparing to do a test on the HD100 and I was comparing your setups to what is mentioned in the menu pages of the camera manual. I'm assuming that "Cine" refers to "Cinema Mode", however I can't find any reference to "Filmout" in the menus listed. Have I missed something?

Since part of the test is a transfer to 35mm I was wondering if you noticed any increase in noise with the black stretch being applied?

Have you done any tests with the different gamma levels?
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Old February 17th, 2006, 06:22 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Drysdale
I'm assuming that "Cine" refers to "Cinema Mode", however I can't find any reference to "Filmout" in the menus listed. Have I missed something?
The Filmout mode is on the Gamma settings, there is Standard, Cine and Filmout. I know I read about it somewhere, I thought it was on the manual but now I can't find it. I didn't pay much atention because from the discription it doesn't apply to my needs. I can't remember what I read about Filmout mode... but it has something to do with printing to film.
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Old February 17th, 2006, 08:23 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diogo Athouguia
The Filmout mode is on the Gamma settings, there is Standard, Cine and Filmout. I know I read about it somewhere, I thought it was on the manual but now I can't find it. I didn't pay much atention because from the discription it doesn't apply to my needs. I can't remember what I read about Filmout mode... but it has something to do with printing to film.
According to the manual there are 3 gamma settings: "Off", "Standard" & "Cinema" then for the last two settings you can adjust the level from "Min (-5)...NORMAL... MAX (5).

I seem to remember Filmout being mentioned in a review, but I don't see it (or can't find it) in the manual for the GY-HD100.
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Old February 17th, 2006, 10:14 AM   #24
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FILMOUT is undocumented and was added last minute as requested by one of the filmmaker "consultants." I think it was probably James Tocher from DFG in Vancouver, but I'm not sure.

We've been discussing the pros and cons of using a filmout curve with MPEG2 compression and 8-bit. Here's one of many threads on the topic:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=59912
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Old February 17th, 2006, 10:20 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Drysdale
Since part of the test is a transfer to 35mm I was wondering if you noticed any increase in noise with the black stretch being applied?
No, but if you are concerned about noise in a filmout, set the V-FREQUENCY to LOW. (Based on a recommendation from James Tocher of DFG.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Drysdale
Have you done any tests with the different gamma levels?
Yes. You will be amazed at how much control the gamma adjustments will give you. Refer to the results of my test at the top of this thread to see the effects of the different settings.
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Old February 17th, 2006, 01:40 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Dashwood
FILMOUT is undocumented and was added last minute as requested by one of the filmmaker "consultants." I think it was probably James Tocher from DFG in Vancouver, but I'm not sure.

We've been discussing the pros and cons of using a filmout curve with MPEG2 compression and 8-bit. Here's one of many threads on the topic:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=59912
Many thanks for the link and the info. I guess I'll have to wait until I get my hands on the camera before checking FILMOUT.
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Old February 17th, 2006, 08:10 PM   #27
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More info here:

http://www.gyhduser.com/showthread.php?t=267
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Old February 18th, 2006, 04:23 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diogo Athouguia
It sounds similar to Film Rec on the Varicam.
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Old February 18th, 2006, 07:12 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Drysdale
It sounds similar to Film Rec on the Varicam.
Exactly. A Linear Response Gamma Curve. Of course it isn't perfectly linear, but pretty close.
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