Big day/First HD job with HD100-Mini35 at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > JVC ProHD & MPEG2 Camera Systems > JVC GY-HD Series Camera Systems

JVC GY-HD Series Camera Systems
GY-HD 100 & 200 series ProHD HDV camcorders & decks.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old November 3rd, 2005, 09:32 AM   #1
Wrangler
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 2,100
Big day/First HD job with HD100-Mini35

So this is the calm before the storm...today I shoot my biggest music vid yet. Tiny by most standards, an $8K budget. I'm starting this thread as a sort of blog for the job. I plan to update this thread as the production rolls along, and since I'm doing post too, relay my experiences with that. Years ago I worked regularly as an assistant cameraman on film shoots quite a bit bigger than this, but this is MY shoot, my job. Director and Director of Photography. It's for a pretty large record label too, so obviously I've got anxiety issues about THAT.

Beside me I have my HD100 all dolled up with Eric McIver's Mini35 and Zeiss Super Speeds (Eric is also on DVINfo.net!). It's a big rig, but surprisingly light.

So now that I have my Blackmagic card, my plan is to shoot HDV-24P, bring into FCP5 via Apple Intermediate Codec/Cinema tools hack, and then cut and color in 720P. Actually, I'll be making offline media also for use with FCP5s multiclip feature to sync all the passes. I've tested all this and it should work fine. Of course if it doesn't, you'll get to read about my new gray hairs here first.

At the end I plan to deliver a Digibeta and if I can score a solid from somebody, an HDCAM master. I'll do the downconversion in FCP to DVCPRO50, and output to Digi. Output will be performed at The DR Group in Hollywood around 11-15-05.

Time to load up the wagon!
__________________
My Work: nateweaver.net
Nate Weaver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 3rd, 2005, 10:54 AM   #2
Obstreperous Rex
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: San Marcos, TX
Posts: 26,900
Images: 513
I hope you're taking some production photos on the set, Nate!
__________________
CH

Search DV Info Net | DV Info Net Sponsors | A Decade (+5) of DVi | ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!
Chris Hurd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 3rd, 2005, 12:38 PM   #3
Old Boot
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: London UK
Posts: 3,528
I'm logged in . .. let's see those pics? ? ? NOW! ! - -Grazie
Graham Bernard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 3rd, 2005, 07:31 PM   #4
Wrangler
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Toronto, ON, Canada
Posts: 3,637
Nate, have you tried connecting via the analog compenent to the decklink and then using the Blackmagic HD 720-23.98 setting?
I know the 720 59.94 setting works for sure. You should try to use the firewire cable for control in DV mode, and then create a new control preset with the required offset. Some trial and error will be necessary.
I have the SD decklink but I'll test this theory in NTSC and let you know how it works. My friend has a decklinkHD with the multibridge and Xserve RAID. I might have a chance to go to his place next week to digitize some more stuff with TC.
Tim Dashwood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 4th, 2005, 12:58 PM   #5
Wrangler
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 2,100
Hey Tim,

My Blackmagic card is SDI in only, so no-go on trying what you described.

Shoot went pretty dang well. I forget ALL the time how things that sound relatively simple in production meetings (even if you kinda know what you're getting yourself into, in this case a huge dust/dirt effect) are always another ball of wax in execution.

A pic:
http://homepage.mac.com/nweaver/.Pic...B84D4D11DA.jpg

Camera had to be bagged half the day...can't be getting Fuller's earth or wheat flour into the Mini. At the end of the shoot, I had a good coat of "dirt" all over me. Of course the band will be getting it out of all sorts of crevices for the next couple seeks, I think.

Last night after I got home I digitized about 5 minutes worth to look at some of the shots I wasn't sure if they had worked...and found out that the flow I described above has one flaw I didn't catch: Apparently when capturing AIC (with resulting file initially at 59.94fps) captures audio at 100% speed, not the accelerated speed the video gets. So when conforming down to 23.98, I get slow audio. So all my shots have 100% 23.98 motion, but slow audio.

This is going to make for the first gray hair, I think. Looks like I'll be syncing all my passes by eye only. Uhg.

More on Saturday or Sunday. I deliver a first cut by Tues.

[edit: I should take a minute to mention the amazement of BigRecordCompany video commissioner on the image of the HD100. I brought my HD monitor to the shoot to view the first setup of the day for color, focus, etc. This is the guy that helps pick directors for million dollar Green Day videos, sits in on telecine sessions with DPs, etc. From an executive decision standpoint, to him, the HD100 is 90% of say, a Varicam]
__________________
My Work: nateweaver.net
Nate Weaver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 4th, 2005, 06:16 PM   #6
HDV Cinema
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 4,007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Dashwood
Nate, have you tried connecting via the analog compenent to the decklink and then using the Blackmagic HD 720-23.98 setting?
I know the 720 59.94 setting works for sure. You should try to use the firewire cable for control in DV mode, and then create a new control preset with the required offset.
This process works great with the last generation of JVC p30 HDV. After my move I just the setup BM last night.

IF the 24 setting removes 2:3 pulldown and If FireWire TC works this would be a way of digitizing directly to DVCPRO 720 HD which does not require a RAID. Some V rez loss, but very cheap solution for 24p.
__________________
Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c
Steve Mullen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 4th, 2005, 07:29 PM   #7
Wrangler
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Toronto, ON, Canada
Posts: 3,637
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate Weaver
Hey Tim,

My Blackmagic card is SDI in only, so no-go on trying what you described.

Shoot went pretty dang well. I forget ALL the time how things that sound relatively simple in production meetings (even if you kinda know what you're getting yourself into, in this case a huge dust/dirt effect) are always another ball of wax in execution.

A pic:
http://homepage.mac.com/nweaver/.Pic...B84D4D11DA.jpg

Camera had to be bagged half the day...can't be getting Fuller's earth or wheat flour into the Mini. At the end of the shoot, I had a good coat of "dirt" all over me. Of course the band will be getting it out of all sorts of crevices for the next couple seeks, I think.
You should try adding water and see how the rental house reacts when you return the gear on Monday!
http://homepage.mac.com/timdashwood/...s/mud_bath.jpg

Quote:
Last night after I got home I digitized about 5 minutes worth to look at some of the shots I wasn't sure if they had worked...and found out that the flow I described above has one flaw I didn't catch: Apparently when capturing AIC (with resulting file initially at 59.94fps) captures audio at 100% speed, not the accelerated speed the video gets. So when conforming down to 23.98, I get slow audio. So all my shots have 100% 23.98 motion, but slow audio.
I always use a very simple and cheap visual "TC slate" method for music videos:
I create a 23.98 sequence in FCP and set the start TC for 09:59:55:00 and then lay "filler" on V1 and the playback starting at 10:00:00:00
Then nest the video and audio track and add TC Reader Effect to the Nest and make the numbers really big. Export as a quicktime movie and burn to a DVD.
Then use a portable DVD player as playback source instead of a CD player, and the flip open screen is your TC visual slate! I suppose if you had a new 5th generation iPod you could make is H.264 and use that - but it might be a little small.

Now here's the really cool part: If you want to shoot overcranked slo-mo sync for 30P, 50P or 60P (but conform back to 23.98 in post,) just change the speed of the nest and output new quicktimes. You can then burn all the different speeds to one DVD with a menu. Singers can usually handle the 25% speed bump of 30fps, but it gets iffy trying to sync to "chipmunks" sounding audio at two and half times the normal speed.

Here's the speed ratios for different overcranked frame rates:

Run original track at 125% speed(124.98% to be exact) to shoot 30P.
Run original track at 209% speed(208.51%) to shoot 50P.
Run original track at 250% speed(249.96%) to shoot 60P.
Tim Dashwood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 4th, 2005, 08:04 PM   #8
Wrangler
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Toronto, ON, Canada
Posts: 3,637
Nate,

I just re-read your initial post and I wanted to confirm a few things:

1. You are shooting 720P24 right?

2. Are you digitizing with FCP5 somehow directly to AIC? Or are you using HDVxDV/DVHSCap/LumiereHD solution and then converting to AIC?

3. By "Cinema Tools Hack" do you mean "Conform to 23.98?"

I ask these questions because I'm trying to figure out why your audio is slowing down. It should keep perfect sync with the video - even if it is all slowed down.
Keep in mind that "conform" in Cinema Tools is not the same as "reverse telecine." Your frame rate will slow down - along with the audio (pitch down too) when using conform - it has the same effect as "speed" in FCP without any rendering. The same amount of frames are still in the file, conform just tells the quicktime file to play them at a different rate.

If you are shooting 24P and want to maintain that frame rate, Lumiere HD 1.6b2 is the only way right now to remove those pulldown frames... but you probably already know all that.


Tim
Tim Dashwood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 4th, 2005, 09:23 PM   #9
Wrangler
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 2,100
Yes, 720/24.

FCP and iMovie will digitize even 24p using AIC, but will give you media files that are timed at 59.94. Conform them back to 23.98 and you've got your 23.98 AIC clips.

What I *didn't* test, however, was audio. The resulting 59.94 media files have 23.98 playing @59.94 motion (which is to say, fast), but the audio is normal. Conform to 23.98 and you have normal motion, and slow audio. Dramatically slow.

Got to either figure a workaround tonight, or plunge ahead without audio.
__________________
My Work: nateweaver.net
Nate Weaver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 4th, 2005, 11:42 PM   #10
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 43
I can do it in quicktime player i think


In quicktime player isolate the audio. go to protperties and click off the video, go to edit and copy


Once you figure out how long the piece should be add the audio back to the video piece via add to selection and scale in the edit menu, then save and reimport into final cut.
Edwin Huang is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 4th, 2005, 11:51 PM   #11
Wrangler
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 2,100
Since I need to move on tonight, I've decided to go ahead with my original plan, but to export off AIFFs of the pre-conformed media so at least I have a few second of the head of each clip as a safety to go back to for sync.

But I'll still be most likely syncing takes without sound. Not a huge deal, I've done it plenty before.

I wish I could post a clip of a take or two...some of it looks amazing.

Couple quick observations though: The Mini does add grain and soften things a tiny bit on it's own. The added grain from the mini though is not handled all that great by HDV compression, so I get a bit more blocking than usual. I think in the end it's gonna look like I shot on 320 speed S16, with all the grain (from Mini and then compounded by HDV).
__________________
My Work: nateweaver.net
Nate Weaver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 5th, 2005, 02:45 AM   #12
Trustee
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 1,214
Try this file to see if it's pre-conformed for you.

Hi Nate,

Here is a file I'd like you to try to import into FCP and see if it's preconformed to 24p. This is your bus shot m2t with the transport stream stripped off. I'm interested because I do a simple process to the m2t file and then the resulting MPEG2 imports into Liquid preconformed to 24p. It may also import into FCP preconformed. The process is lossless.

Click here to download
Stephen L. Noe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 5th, 2005, 05:38 AM   #13
Wrangler
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Toronto, ON, Canada
Posts: 3,637
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen L. Noe
Hi Nate,

Here is a file I'd like you to try to import into FCP and see if it's preconformed to 24p. This is your bus shot m2t with the transport stream stripped off. I'm interested because I do a simple process to the m2t file and then the resulting MPEG2 imports into Liquid preconformed to 24p. It may also import into FCP preconformed. The process is lossless.

Click here to download
Stephen,

The pulldown frames have been removed in that clip, but the frame rate is still 59.94. Therefore the clip plays out in 2.7 seconds when it should last almost 7 seconds. It just needs to be "framerate conformed" back to 23.98fps.

I duplicated Nate's workflow tonight and he's stumbled upon a pretty useful method for digitizing 720P24 video in FCP5 using a similar trick.
When you switch the capture preset to HDV Apple Intermediate Codec and then go to "log & capture" a simple little prompt asks you what to name the file. You simply type a filename, hit enter and it will digitize the whole tape making new clips at every start/stop break. It seems to only digitize the 24P frames and automatically discards the pulldown frames. However the file is still flagged as 59.94 so it plays 250% faster than it should. A simple "batch conform to 23.98" in Cinema Tools changes all of the recently digitized files at once, and you have usable 720P24 in AIC. For all intents and purposes this is a realtime process.
The first big downside is that the sound pitches down to about 19Khz. Nate stripped off his sound before doing the batch conform, but you are only left with the first 40% of the clip because of the duration difference. This doesn't really matter for MOS shots, but doesn't work for sync sound stuff.
The other downside is that it doesn't record TC. Every clip starts at 00:00:00:00. Then again, Lumiere HD seems to do the same thing right now.

Interestingly, I tried digitizing 720P24 in iMovieHD and it works exactly the same way. Just capture the whole tape, then find your project file, "show package contents" and open the media folder. You can then batch conform those files to 23.98.
Tim Dashwood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 5th, 2005, 06:12 AM   #14
Trustee
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 1,214
Tim,

The file provided imports into Liquid 6.1 as 24p conformed with audio in sync so, somehow the program "knows" what to do with the 59.94 framerate from the MPEG2 file. It must actually count the frames? When I import the same m2t (unstripped) directly into Liquid it plays fast. I was hoping what I do would be the same for the FCP group because it is very simple to strip the ts or m2t header off to reveal the MPEG2 video without loosing any quality in a transcode.
Stephen L. Noe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 5th, 2005, 01:51 PM   #15
Wrangler
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 2,100
Still syncing takes, about 2/3rds done.

A lot of my clips are the last half of the song, and will go on existing tracks instead of adding more. I think it's at 22 passes right now, probably not any more than 30 when done.

http://homepage.mac.com/nweaver/.Pictures/timeline.jpg
__________________
My Work: nateweaver.net
Nate Weaver is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > JVC ProHD & MPEG2 Camera Systems > JVC GY-HD Series Camera Systems

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:35 PM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network