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Old November 22nd, 2005, 04:17 PM   #61
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Thanks Brian. Useful info. I'll look into repeating your method with the deck.

I probably muddied the water here a bit asking follow up questions.

I know the deck is working in other NLEs as it works fairly well for me under Vegas so I am no longer prone to think it's a deck issue. JVC is in the clear as far as I am concerned at this point on control and even TC issues.

I have to get the info on that system and start a real bug report, if someone else hasn't done it already on this issue.

It's still odd that the deck won't respond to 422 using other standard decks, like Sonys.

Thanks again Brian.

Panos, thanks for the follow up information. I will give your methods a try also.

Jim, I have a short thread there too. You probably ran across it if you did a search in the Avid forums.

Hanging in.

Sean

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Old November 22nd, 2005, 09:46 PM   #62
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to Steve Mullen

We capture with a setting HDV 720p 30 frames but the footage is transcoded in
DNxHD automatically. Then we export through the EXPORT TO HDV that works instead of the digital cut and the footage is export in m2t stream. Using this m2t stream is captured to tape as HDV mpg again identical to the original footage in quality. I hope that my perseption of the procedure is correct... Now, this is a question, if i change the m2t in mpg the fille is recognised by windows media player and by the dvd authoring softwear. Why is this happening? There is no other way to get the fille as it is?

I have the plug in from adobe and the aspect HD that supports 24 frames. The issue was with the deck control. Is less effective than the Avid one. Also the cineform codec seems less good than the DNxHD, in video quality on the descktop.

I see that the new Avid liquid edition came out with an outbrake box from pinacle? that supports HDV and mpg formats. Have you any info about it? It seems that it is replacing the mojo and that allows preview to a monitor?!
I hope.
It is also a cheaper version than the Pro HD softwear.
We would appreciate a full solution for our editing needs. The marketing language that supports the new NLE solutions for the HD100 JVC cam. is misleading.
As we are not technicians but we produce movies we cannot follow all these bul.... all the time, spending money for half and half performances.
Panos
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Old November 22nd, 2005, 10:19 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Panos Bournias
We capture with a setting HDV 720p 30 frames but the footage is transcoded in
DNxHD automatically. Then we export through the EXPORT TO HDV that works instead of the digital cut and the footage is export in m2t stream. Using this m2t stream is captured to tape as HDV mpg again identical to the original footage in quality. I hope that my perseption of the procedure is correct... Now, this is a question, if i change the m2t in mpg the fille is recognised by windows media player and by the dvd authoring softwear. Why is this happening? There is no other way to get the fille as it is?
THANK YOU -- no one else has reported on using DNxHD. And, your procedure works as I would expect. (I'm still waiting for a copy from Avid.)

I think you are saying if you change file.m2t to file.mpg you can play it in the WM Player. Looks like WMP will play both Program Stream (PS) and Transport Stream(TS) files -- but needs the correct extention.

Try downloading VLC from videolan.com as it will read .m2t directly.

--------------------

I have the plug in from Adobe and the aspect HD that supports 24 frames. The issue was with the deck control. Is less effective than the Avid one. Also the cineform codec seems less good than the DNxHD, in video quality on the descktop.

I too found deck control problems. They said they are going to do more tests. They seem to think their CFHD codec quality is higher than DNxHD. Here's an idea. Use the CFHD "LARGE" setting and the data will be less compressed.

If you use the right graphics card with AspectHD and Premiere Pro it will play out HD to a HD monitor with a DVI connection.

I wouldn't bother about Liquid Edition unless you want to learn a whole new interface.

My experience with CineForm is they really do good work and I have no problems using Premiere Pro. But then I've used Premiere since V1. The next version will support 24p HDV back to the camcorder.
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Old November 23rd, 2005, 08:43 AM   #64
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Sean, I'm sorry I just caught up with this thread. I can control the camera in HDV @ 720P30 although I haven't tried going back to tape yet. I don't own the BR-HD50, however I may have some suggestions which will help you. Some may be a bit basic, but I figure it's best to cover all bases, espec given that you are experiencing problems that i am not.

1. Ignore Steve, he seems to have a different agenda

2. If you have iTunes installed - uninstall it. Apparently it doesn't play well wth the Avid, and it's an absolute dog for playing music anyway. Great database though.

3. The Avid's capture system is way more sophisticated than a Media 100. Media 100 looks at the start timecode, starts digitising and then tells you at the end if the duration of the clip matched the outpoint (used to drive me nuts with broken code). Avid polls the deck continually for drop frame flags, timecode numbers etc. If it doesn't get what is expected it let's you know with some at times confusing error messages. So I think we can ignore that as an example.

4. You must hook up the deck and have it recognised by Windows before you launch Avid

5. If you have either Adrenaline or Xpress Pro w/Mojo you must choose host for device control (I think it's on the special menu with group mode for some reason -note this is separate from the deck configuration area). That is you understand you cannot capture HDV via an Avid DNA device?

6. If you have Adrenaline or Mojo connected you must have a separate firewire card on a different PCI controller chip to the host (obvious I know but worth covering all bases) - only certain MB chipsets with a North and South bridge support this and then the IEEE card must be inthe right slot.

7. I ran into problems in PAL with JVC's recorded code on tape. I'm wondering if they've mucked up something in 720P30?

8. Give point 7. I'd be looking real hard at JVC's implementation of the Sony 9 pin protocol. Any company that can release a camera which adds a dropframe flag into the 50i stream by definition has shortcomings in this area. I believe their first attempt at a DV/DV-Cam deck was a total disaster and they are now mostly being used as boat anchors.

9. Firewire devices are very prolific, and they don't always respect the ID protocol set out in the specs. In firewire mode try removing all other firewire devices.

10. Once again basic - make sure you are using a 422 - 232 converter (usually a Rosetta Stone for Avid) that you know is "good" - test the complete path, cables and everything on another deck (preferably a Sony)

11. Adrenaline support for 720P30 is still in beta, so I assume you must have been using the beta version to test on Adrenaline. Only Xpress Pro has a released version.

12. As Avid now owns Liquid, you could probably try and offline in that if you can't solve your problems. While you don't have full timeline and effects support to move to the traditional Avid products I believe they have already introduced some interoperability.

13. Finally I have had the odd problem with the firewire connection on the HD100 being a bit temperamental (seems like the socket is not the most secure in the world) - it must be recognised by windows and appear as an AV/C tape device in your hardware devices list, before you launch Avid. Check that you have installed the IEEE1394 update to SP2 for XP which unnecessarily slowed the port down to 100Mb/s and caused havoc with firewire devices.
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Old November 26th, 2005, 01:20 AM   #65
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John. All good things to check. I will go over this again Monday morning. Thanks for the very clear ideas. I would love to play more in the Xpress ProHD suite but the darned editors and management keep insisting they get some non-HDV work done in there.

As soon as I have a chance I'll look into the SP2 issue. I forgot about that one.

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Old November 26th, 2005, 05:10 PM   #66
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We have been able to use RS-422 remote from two or three different sources to control the HD50.

I had to set preroll to at least 7 seconds, it takes the deck so long to get HDV up and running. Also, I changed the EE settings so I can keep the tape threaded when I hit stop. This helps reduce that 5-10 sec lag as the GOP gets decoded.

But the real issue has been malfunctions. This has happened with 2 of our HD50 decks. I now have a loaner from Ken Freed while JVC engineering looks into the problem with one that is malfunctioning. The other deck was replaced with a new one and has not malfunctioned yet other that reporting a head clog after playing one tape for 20 minutes or so.

Still no idea what is causing the problems with these decks. It's replicatable but only under certain conditions of heavy use. We just don't know if it is a problem using RS-422, a problem with the deck dealing with batch capturing lot's of HDV clips, the type of tape or what.

Symptom: During capture in remote, the machine jumps into an error mode, often switching into "50" or PAL. (these are NTSC machines). Then the output character gen puts one of several strange error warnings on the screen "Playback Inhibit", "Repeat=00", "Overheating" ect. When this happens the deck shuts off. Unplugging it is the only way to get it back on. When we get it back up and switch the format back to "60", the deck often will no longer recognize tapes in the "native" setting and only by forcing the format to 720p can we get them to output HDV again.

I'l love to hear from any other people who experience this so we can compare notes.

I know this isn't just about Avid control, but I think there are some bigger problems that people are going to see once they really put the deck into heavy service.

Dave Beaty
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Old November 28th, 2005, 12:01 PM   #67
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Dave, we haven't had that happen yet. We do have a new one in the box here but I have a few things to check on our side before running it through it's paces.

First, we found a known issue on our Xpress ProHD machine. We somehow had QT updated to 7.0.2 and I think Avid is still recommending 6.5x as the only operational version they will deal with. With it came iTunes. I swear Apple is getting to be like Microsoft bundeling things together. I'm sure onee of the operators needed a codec and thought he was getting just the newer QT.

Anyway, these may have nothing to do with our 422 and 1394 control issues.

I can say we rented a Sony HDV camera and it is working well enough right now via 1394. Has video/audio and control. Looks good too. Too bad the JVCs are an issue.

John -

Looked over all your points here at work toady and yep, I concur with everything you mentioned. We either did that or tried it and none of those things matter except, the last tie I plugged the BR-HD50 deck in via 1394, no ding-ding from the PC. We aren't sure what's going on there yet.

See above but the Sony HDV camera is doing fine with the same setup. It's in the 4th suite grabbing 1080i HDV footage right now. So far so good.

On iTunes, is there anything on the Avid or other sites about that conflict? I haven't looked yet but will do so after lunch here. We indeed do have it installed. As soon as I can get permission to remove it I will, along with the 7.0.2 version of QT. I'm sure they got installed together accidentally. (Thanks Apple.)

I think the supported version is still QT 6.5.3 or so.

Thanks again.

Sean

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Old December 1st, 2005, 12:30 PM   #68
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JVC BR-HD50 works fine on Avid!

Hi Sean,
Being a PAL-user: yes, the JVC BR-HD50 works fine on Avid! But, indeed, it took us some time to get to this point...

Discovered that it only works using the only Mac Adrenalin, and thats
because of the keyspan adapter between deck and G5. Direct remote via
RS-422 or Firewire does not work!

Secondly we were successful using the Template JVC BR-D52E PAL. I dont
know whether this is helpful for you using NTSC, but at least this does
prove that you are able to use the deck, doesnt it?

Meanwhile I have moved to a Mac-based Xpresspro station, and it also seems to work fine.

best regards+good luck,

Andi
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Old December 1st, 2005, 01:06 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean McHenry
the last time I plugged the BR-HD50 deck in via 1394, no ding-ding from the PC. We aren't sure what's going on there yet.
That means Windows either doesn't know the deck was disconnected (unlikely) or it does not see the deck. Without a ding-ding from Windows the XP driver is unware and not working with the deck.

Most application software uses the XP driver so it is helpless if the driver doesn't have control of the deck.

This problem must be solved before anything. Either power cycle the deck or reboot the computer -- or both, with deck being powered up ONLY AFTER XP is fully running. You must hear a ding-ding when the deck is powered-up and you should power-down the deck -- with another ding-ding -- before shutting-dowm or restarting XP.

Lastly, as someone else posted -- count on at least 10 seconds before you get good data from a PLAY.
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Old December 7th, 2005, 11:25 AM   #70
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same problem here a few times

Though infrequently, we've had Dave Beatty's issue as well, using RS 422 and FCP Component Capture through decklink. First time we thought it was a user error (that was an 'overheat' message, then stuck in PAL), then next I KNOW it wasn't user error, this time 'repeat=00' then stuck in PAL. Scary thing now is that the repeat=00 error message hasn't gone away like last time after I got the deck back functioning, and I'm not sure what that means. I do know how to get the deck back into working order (and its not simply powering back up, you gotta set 2 or 3 different menu items without the benefit of seeing them unless you have a PAL monitor hooked up!)

Only one of our decks does this. they're both awesome decks beyond this little problem, not one other problem aside. And I LOVE the RS 422!

PS, all of our offline-online recaptures with RS 422 have been dead-on with the TC, as you would expect with serial control. FireWire deck control has never been reliable and I'm tickled pink to have the serial control.

Feel free to contact me about particulars of the troubleshooting, JVC!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Beaty
We have been able to use RS-422 remote from two or three different sources to control the HD50.

I had to set preroll to at least 7 seconds, it takes the deck so long to get HDV up and running. Also, I changed the EE settings so I can keep the tape threaded when I hit stop. This helps reduce that 5-10 sec lag as the GOP gets decoded.

But the real issue has been malfunctions. This has happened with 2 of our HD50 decks. I now have a loaner from Ken Freed while JVC engineering looks into the problem with one that is malfunctioning. The other deck was replaced with a new one and has not malfunctioned yet other that reporting a head clog after playing one tape for 20 minutes or so.

Still no idea what is causing the problems with these decks. It's replicatable but only under certain conditions of heavy use. We just don't know if it is a problem using RS-422, a problem with the deck dealing with batch capturing lot's of HDV clips, the type of tape or what.

Symptom: During capture in remote, the machine jumps into an error mode, often switching into "50" or PAL. (these are NTSC machines). Then the output character gen puts one of several strange error warnings on the screen "Playback Inhibit", "Repeat=00", "Overheating" ect. When this happens the deck shuts off. Unplugging it is the only way to get it back on. When we get it back up and switch the format back to "60", the deck often will no longer recognize tapes in the "native" setting and only by forcing the format to 720p can we get them to output HDV again.

I'l love to hear from any other people who experience this so we can compare notes.

I know this isn't just about Avid control, but I think there are some bigger problems that people are going to see once they really put the deck into heavy service.

Dave Beaty
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Old December 7th, 2005, 03:45 PM   #71
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We have seen Dave Beaty's deck. There does seem to be a small difficulty here.

It APPEARS (we aren't certain yet) the deck resets itself to 50Hz instead of 60Hz. It can be difficult to then set it to 60Hz using a 60Hz monitor.

However.
NOTE: in the instruction book where the menu tables are you will notice small numbers under each menu item. Those are the front panel numbers which indicate each item. Using those numbers you can navigate the menu structure without a monitor at all. You can go to the the frequency and set 60Hz.

Dave's deck we think also reset to auto record but we couldn't confirm that. And his deck seemed to reset to a temperature sensor value lower than the default should be, this would imply the deck is not overheating but the temp limit is set too low. We didn't have too much time that day and we returned Dave's deck.

We are looking into this but it will take longer than I wish it would.
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Old December 7th, 2005, 04:44 PM   #72
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Thanks Ken

Thanks for the info
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Old December 7th, 2005, 10:07 PM   #73
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Thanks Ken,

I know the malfunction I was having is a very intermittent problem. At least it's been documented in a few units. (Charles's) I wonder if it's not somehow related to control via RS-422, which allows for very fast shuttling and capture in batch capture mode. Maybe there is a bug in there somewhere that fires the overheating routine. PAL mode was a surprise, but I was able to activate NTSC even on an NTSC monitor in PAL mode!

Before all this, we saw the overheating error the first time we experienced the prob, before the reboot and reset after the error. Do you think the temp sensor level was too low out of the box?

In normal use, with capturing long clips or playing tapes, nothing unusual.

Our unit that JVC engineering reset is functioning as new, yet I've not done a serious RS-422 capture session with it. Actually we are switching to Panasonic tape to eliminate the possibility that the Sony brand formula was causing the temp senor to rise as well as the head clog warnings. We shall see what happens.

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Old December 7th, 2005, 10:51 PM   #74
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Cool, maybe

Hopefully we'll find out soon. We were using nothing but JVC stock HDV packaged tape.

Could be maybe with the serial and heavy shuttling, we definitely do that. Only JVC engineers con sort it out. Hope they will be able to, because I'm loving the workflow I'm getting with the 100U and the BR.
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Old December 7th, 2005, 11:35 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andi Preisner
Hi Sean,
Being a PAL-user: yes, the JVC BR-HD50 works fine on Avid! But, indeed, it took us some time to get to this point...

Discovered that it only works using the only Mac Adrenalin, and thats
because of the keyspan adapter between deck and G5. Direct remote via
RS-422 or Firewire does not work!
Andi
Andi _ I believe you but that makes no sense at all - the RS422 should work with windows - I have numerous (admittedly all Sony) decks working with XPro, Adrenaline and Xpress Elite, both on XP and W2000. The deck and the RS422 protocol sound like the culprit here. I even have an old UVW1400 with a 232-422-232 converter situation - works perfectly. When you think about it all the keyspan adapter does is convert the traditional serial information so it can be read on a different kind of port, so practically it should make no difference at all.

It's clear to me that JVC have either stuffed up the protocol, or probably more likely the electrical specs, if it works with one adapter and not another. I would contact Bruce at Addenda Electronics and see if he has anyway of testing the deck... I've found him extremely helpful in the past.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Mchenry
On iTunes, is there anything on the Avid or other sites about that conflict? I haven't looked yet but will do so after lunch here. We indeed do have it installed. As soon as I can get permission to remove it I will, along with the 7.0.2 version of QT. I'm sure they got installed together accidentally. (Thanks Apple.)

I think the supported version is still QT 6.5.3 or so.
Sean - I got my information from the local Avid ACSR - I haven't seen anything on Avid's site and I can't even tell you what the specific conflict is. You can download a standalone installer for Quicktime. I think they want you to install 7 with the latest HD release, but I'm sure it's broken some things.

That lack of recognition in firewire mode is a worry for you...
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