Question about Firestore/ DR-HD100

Nate Weaver · February 5th, 2006, 03:15 PM

To be honest, I know nothing about the Cineform workflow as it relates to m2ts, so I can't answer anything really. Sowwy.

I unfortunately though am all too aware of the sad state of FCP and the HD100 right now!

Greg Corke · February 5th, 2006, 03:27 PM

Thanks anaway Nate. Apparently there's an fcp solution on its way so don't dispair. Besides half the fun is wiating like a condemned at the mercy of big corporations (not). I 'm with you mate. Its frustrating, I guess we're supposed to channel the frustration into something creative trouble is thats not always as easy as it sound. Hang in there mate.

Regards Greg

Tim Dashwood · February 6th, 2006, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Corke

Thanks Nate,

I appreciate that. Just one more quick question. Do you see any problem with me downloading the .m2ts after each days shoot and storing on an external drive and leaving them there until I'm ready to edit for example with Cineform's Aspect and pp. If theres is no problem do you have any idea how long it might take to do this for say 1 hour of footage. (to convert)

I would imagine that you can convert the m2t files from the firestore the same way you would if you had captured them with Lumiere HD or HDVxDV. I'm sure that you could use Lumiere HD or HDVxDV to remove the pulldown frames.

If anyone has a small m2t file created by the firestore, I'd love to check it out and see how well it converts.

Greg Corke · February 7th, 2006, 04:46 AM

Sorry Tim I had every intention of doing that for you but as usual there has been a delay from jvc here in england with regard to th dr hd100. I'm thinking I'm gonna have to go with the fs4 pro as I only have a week or so till I shoot. Once Ive got some of that downloaded i'll see if I can get a chunk to you. I'm still looking at 3 weeks minimum though sorry for the delay.

Greg

Greg Corke · February 7th, 2006, 04:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Dashwood

I would imagine that you can convert the m2t files from the firestore the same way you would if you had captured them with Lumiere HD or HDVxDV. I'm sure that you could use Lumiere HD or HDVxDV to remove the pulldown frames.

If anyone has a small m2t file created by the firestore, I'd love to check it out and see how well it converts.

Sorry Tim,

You seem to have some possible misgivings about the Firesore. You mentioned before about the repeat flags and, above, the pulldown frames. If you get a momemnt would you be able to explain to me what your concerns are with these two things. I'm going to the video forum at Earl's Court tomorrow and the uk rep for Focus Enhancements will be there I just want to make sure I'm armed with the right questions before I purchase.

Thanks again Mate Greg C

Edwin Huang · February 7th, 2006, 11:48 AM

Does anyone actually have the JVC models yet? I've been waiting for any reputable retailer to have them in stock. I know I can probably buy the fs-4 pro, but I'm willing to spend the extra money on a more integrated product.

Doug Spice · February 7th, 2006, 03:23 PM

Well, this thread sure took off since last I was here. Good info, thanks guys.

I'm actually not sure that the units are released yet, let alone pricing. A search is turning up nothing reliable from any English-speaking site.

Jim Giberti · February 7th, 2006, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Spice

Well, this thread sure took off since last I was here. Good info, thanks guys.

I'm actually not sure that the units are released yet, let alone pricing. A search is turning up nothing reliable from any English-speaking site.

I can't imagine that they are. Focus intent was to release it sometime this spring I thought and I kind of doubt that they'd be ahead of schedule with it.
Until they have a working pre-production model that demuxes m2t files and delivers native QT 24p (and FCP follows through on there end) it's just a waiting game.
But for some reason I have this sense of confidence that Apple and they will come through before too long.
I'm an optimist.

Greg Corke · February 7th, 2006, 03:42 PM

I spoke to jvc uk yesterday. They are still waiting on field tests being done in Italy and Germany. As soon as jvc are happy they can put there name on it they are going to ship almost straight away. That's what I was told anyway. May be too late for me though. Might have to go for firestore instead. On the flip side fs4hdv pro 80gig is same price as dr hd100 40 gig so it aint all bad.

Cheers Greg C

Jim Giberti · February 7th, 2006, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Corke

I spoke to jvc uk yesterday. They are still waiting on field tests being done in Italy and Germany. As soon as jvc are happy they can put there name on it they are going to ship almost straight away. That's what I was told anyway. May be too late for me though. Might have to go for firestore instead. On the flip side fs4hdv pro 80gig is same price as dr hd100 40 gig so it aint all bad.

Cheers Greg C

That's good news Greg, I was really hoping to start the next projects on HDD.
I hope it works out for you...keep us posted.

Steve Mullen · February 7th, 2006, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Corke

Sorry Tim, You seem to have some possible misgivings about the Firesore. You mentioned before about the repeat flags and, above, the pulldown frames.

I think Nates answer was correct. The DV or HDV data stream is input via 1394 to the FireStore/JVC processor. Then, without opening either compressed or PCM data, it writes the data out WITHIN a chosen file structure.

These file structures are now independent of the 1394 format. They are READY for use by whatever NLE the product supports.

As Nate said -- these structures are "wrappers" for the DV or HDV data.

Tim's concern may lie with "what kind of data the wrappers can hold." Part of a wrapper is a description of the data. If the wrapper isn't able to store the information about HOW JVC and Canon store the 24fps HDV data -- in the way the NLE expects -- the NLE won't know what the data are.

<<< Specifically, does QT store MPEG-2 data that has Repeat Flags? I expect it does. >>>

And therein lies the rub. How do you store information that is required by an NLE in the WAY the NLE requires if that NLE has yet to define the WAY it will support the video format?

Given Apple and Avid and Adobe's fight for NLE market share -- any or all -- may be relunctant to disclose anything until their support is on the market (or at least in Beta). I suspect this is the real reason why Focus is delaying to April.

Lastly, when Focus talks of "conversion" I agree that this means no more than reading the data from one wrapper and writing it out under another wrapper.

Greg Corke · February 7th, 2006, 05:05 PM

Thanks Steve,

I'm gonna print that little sucker off and take it with me tomorrow. However, am I right in thinking that as long as I have the .m2t which I believe is in essence the native transport stream then I can just store those on a hard drive and convert at a later date to whatever intermediate I want or can handle the conversion. Hope I'm understanding this correctly?

Regards Greg C

Greg Corke · February 7th, 2006, 05:11 PM

<<< Specifically, does QT store MPEG-2 data that has Repeat Flags? I expect it does. >>>

And therein lies the rub. How do you store information that is required by an NLE in the WAY the NLE requires if that NLE has yet to define the WAY it will support the video format?

with fcp that is true but we know adobe can handle through cineform.

Additionaly, are there still repeat flags to contend with in .m2t's?

Tim Dashwood · February 7th, 2006, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Corke

Additionaly, are there still repeat flags to contend with in .m2t's?

Yes. If you shoot 720P24 and capture with any sort of MPEG transport stream software you will have a 720P60 file (24P with 2:3 pulldown repeat frames.)

Software like HDVxDV will remove the flags on a Mac and create a 720P24 quicktime file in a new codec. Lumiere HD will remove the repeat flags during the demux process. I'm not sure how the workflows work on Windows.

I'd simply like to know if the m2t files written to the FS-4 are 720P60, no matter what shooting frame rate is selected in the camera.

Steve Mullen · February 7th, 2006, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Dashwood

I'd simply like to know if the m2t files written to the FS-4 are 720P60, no matter what shooting frame rate is selected in the camera.

Since the RFs are MPEG2 flags they will always be in the data that are untouched by Focus.

What's important is that the QT and AVI file descriptors are able to, and do, corrrectly indicate to the NLE what the data stream is. I have no doubt that QT can store such data or that Focus knows how to set the bits correctly.

Of course, if Apple's HDV implementation correctly handled MPEG2 it would correctly interpret the TS stream no matter what the QT header indicated.

Every HDTV can correctly handle 24p, 30p, and 60p based upon the RFs.

So I think we are back to Apple, Avid, and Adobe.

February 5th, 2006, 03:15 PM	#16
Nate Weaver Wrangler Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 2,100	To be honest, I know nothing about the Cineform workflow as it relates to m2ts, so I can't answer anything really. Sowwy. I unfortunately though am all too aware of the sad state of FCP and the HD100 right now! __________________ My Work: nateweaver.net

February 5th, 2006, 03:27 PM	#17
Greg Corke Major Player Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 245	Thanks anaway Thanks anaway Nate. Apparently there's an fcp solution on its way so don't dispair. Besides half the fun is wiating like a condemned at the mercy of big corporations (not). I 'm with you mate. Its frustrating, I guess we're supposed to channel the frustration into something creative trouble is thats not always as easy as it sound. Hang in there mate. Regards Greg

February 7th, 2006, 03:42 PM	#24
Greg Corke Major Player Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 245	Hi Guys I spoke to jvc uk yesterday. They are still waiting on field tests being done in Italy and Germany. As soon as jvc are happy they can put there name on it they are going to ship almost straight away. That's what I was told anyway. May be too late for me though. Might have to go for firestore instead. On the flip side fs4hdv pro 80gig is same price as dr hd100 40 gig so it aint all bad. Cheers Greg C

February 7th, 2006, 05:05 PM	#27
Greg Corke Major Player Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 245	Cheers Thanks Steve, I'm gonna print that little sucker off and take it with me tomorrow. However, am I right in thinking that as long as I have the .m2t which I believe is in essence the native transport stream then I can just store those on a hard drive and convert at a later date to whatever intermediate I want or can handle the conversion. Hope I'm understanding this correctly? Regards Greg C

February 7th, 2006, 05:11 PM	#28
Greg Corke Major Player Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 245	Additionaly <<< Specifically, does QT store MPEG-2 data that has Repeat Flags? I expect it does. >>> And therein lies the rub. How do you store information that is required by an NLE in the WAY the NLE requires if that NLE has yet to define the WAY it will support the video format? with fcp that is true but we know adobe can handle through cineform. Additionaly, are there still repeat flags to contend with in .m2t's?

February 7th, 2006, 04:46 AM	#19
Greg Corke Major Player Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 245	Sorry Tim I had every intention of doing that for you but as usual there has been a delay from jvc here in england with regard to th dr hd100. I'm thinking I'm gonna have to go with the fs4 pro as I only have a week or so till I shoot. Once Ive got some of that downloaded i'll see if I can get a chunk to you. I'm still looking at 3 weeks minimum though sorry for the delay. Greg

February 7th, 2006, 11:48 AM	#21
Edwin Huang Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 43	Does anyone actually have the JVC models yet? I've been waiting for any reputable retailer to have them in stock. I know I can probably buy the fs-4 pro, but I'm willing to spend the extra money on a more integrated product.

February 7th, 2006, 03:23 PM	#22
Doug Spice New Boot Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 18	Well, this thread sure took off since last I was here. Good info, thanks guys. I'm actually not sure that the units are released yet, let alone pricing. A search is turning up nothing reliable from any English-speaking site.