JVC HD100-Is this camera suitable for 'live' events in HDV mode? at DVinfo.net

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Old February 6th, 2006, 07:04 AM   #1
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JVC HD100-Is this camera suitable for 'live' events in HDV mode?

First off, if this has been discussed before..I'm sorry! But I cannot find the threads.

I am an event videographer currently using SonyPD150 cameras. I have bought an HD100 to expand my knowledge and services.

My initial experiences with the camera were good and for doco and film making I think it is a great camera.

However I am not sure I am brave enough to use this camera in HDV mode for, say a wedding. (DV mode no probs) The tolerances for unexpected movement in the shot seem to be just too tight! Objects moving accross screen in the immediate background etc. A wedding can be a hectic environment and the 'unexpected' has to be 'expected'

I do not over use slowmotion but it does have its place and I cannot get good HDV slomo on this cam. You filmmakers out there MUST use slomo at some point. What settings do you use?

Shooting a 'once in a lifetime' event such as a wedding is difficult enough without having all the extra disciplines of progressive to worry about!

I have also had dropout problems which is worrying for live events. I think the FS-4 would have to be an essential addition if the 'must get' shots are to be guaranteed dropout free. Does the footage gathered on the firestore differ in look in any way to that gathered on tape?

Can anyone here let me know if they have used this camera in a 'live' situation and what experiences they have had. Are they happy with the results,(is the client happy!?) If so could they share their settings or better still post some footage?

Cheers

Tony Goodman
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Old February 6th, 2006, 05:40 PM   #2
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I don't own JVC HD100. I can't answer your question but weddings are low light events and SSE should be a problem with this camera.

Also, my company wants to upgrade to HDV. We do mainly weddings. You said JVC with DV mode works fine for you. Compare to PD150 how good is it in low light? Some weddings we have to use 9db on our PD170.
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Old February 6th, 2006, 06:17 PM   #3
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I felt the same way a few months ago. I moved recently from a PD-150 experience into the JVC HD100 progressive world. I'm still in the learning curve sort of speaking since this camera is not just a camera to turn in the ON position and start shooting.
This camera was ideal tool for me to take the step from DV to HDV.
Because the camera can also work in DV mode (=ideal if you are not familiar with the camera). And in HDV there are settings like smoothing ON, which helps you to take the step to shoot in HDV progressive while not 100% respecting the 'progressive rules'. If you move the camera is smears out the fast images or objects a bit without seeing the foreground strobing too much.

Progressive is also the format to come along with all these LCD/Plasma screens. That was another reason for me to move to progressive.
I shoot much more static shots now, and the end-result looks also more filmic due to this alone. If you need to pan, follow a subject or person passing by.
And for static scenes pan slooowly if you need to.
It's a learning curve, but the results are so stunning with this camera, that I shoot any event now in HDV and also edit in HDV. Depending on the clients needs, I export the finished video in WMV-HD or to SD or DVD. And I keep the edited HDV in case the customer later on wants HD resolution afterall.
I'm sure other guys on the forum have much more experience then me to share.

Bora, I do own a camera and the SSE is no problem as long as you don't go into high gain. Please check it out at a JVC dealer before mentioning the SSE as a 'problem'.
And yes the PD150/PD170 are better in low light. Higher resolution on a 1/3" inch chip just needs more light. I never use gain on any of my camera's higher then 3 db. The PD-150 also becomes grainy in high gain like any camera.
For my 0.05 Euro cents, on events I always carry a dimmable camera light.
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Old February 6th, 2006, 06:59 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bora Yenal
I don't own JVC HD100. I can't answer your question but weddings are low light events and SSE should be a problem with this camera.

Also, my company wants to upgrade to HDV. We do mainly weddings. You said JVC with DV mode works fine for you. Compare to PD150 how good is it in low light? Some weddings we have to use 9db on our PD170.
The SSE is not a problem on weddings, I shot 2 weddings already with my HD101 and the result was better than when I used my PD150. It is not the most light sensible camera, but is better than a Z1 and SSE is not an issue you should concern about. Split screen is a reality, but you can hardly see it under extreme situations, so extreme that your footage would be trash anyway.

Stop undervaluing this camera just because first units had a visible split screen, have you ever tried one under low light situations and found a SSE? I'm sorry Bora, but if you don't have experience with the HD100 you shouldn't especulate based on what you've read. Well, I own one and I've been using for live events, documentarys, sports and brodcasting stuff, never had problems with split screen.Try searching this forum for late complains about SSE... you won't find. This is an excelente camera. If your problem is light forget HDV, these cameras are less sensible than some DV cameras.

Tony, I have no experience with HDV on weddings. I shoot in 16:9 DV 50i mode because I don't have yet a capable PC for editing HDV. I use interlaced because it is better for slowmotion, however progressive is better for low light.
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Old February 6th, 2006, 08:47 PM   #5
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Diogo, you should try cineform. I downloaded the trial version and it is great for editing HDV (www.cineform.com). I used it with my P4 3.2 system. I can do realtime color correction. I downloaded some Z1U and HD100 footage over internet and converted to cineform avi. I couldn't get good slow motion from JVC but I guess It was shot 24p 48 shutter and I don't know If 30p with 60 shutter will be better for slow motion. Any idea ? We do lots of slow motion for preparation section.
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Old February 6th, 2006, 08:57 PM   #6
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Stop undervaluing this camera just because first units had a visible split screen, have you ever tried one under low light situations and found a SSE?

By the time, I wasn't undervaluing anything. It was my assumption. I can't rent the camera or buy to test it. And thanks for the information. So now I know there is no SSE problem.

Some of our clients don't like on camera lights so we have to shoot in high gain (sometimes even 12db
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Old February 6th, 2006, 09:14 PM   #7
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Have you tried 480p60 for the slomo and uprezzing? The softness of the uprez is better than the alternative.
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Old February 6th, 2006, 09:34 PM   #8
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If your company wants to upgrade to HDV and progressive is good for you, than this is the camera. About the SSE, it is always good to check the camera you're purchasing. It is a characteristic and not a defect, but some units may be not so well calibrated and the split can be more visible. Don't forget to let it turned on for at least 5 minutes before shooting... and if everything is ok believe me, SSE won't be a problem.

Thanks for the advice about cineform, but the problem is with my hardware. I will purchase a AMD dual core next month, my AMD Athlon 2600XP+ can't handle HDV nor the Adobe Premiére Pro 2.0...

By the way, you should say to your clients that on camera light is better than a grainy image. They don't ask the photographer not to use flash, do they? I never shot a wedding without the light, I don't even ask for their permission.
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Old February 7th, 2006, 03:29 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diogo Athouguia
By the way, you should say to your clients that on camera light is better than a grainy image. They don't ask the photographer not to use flash, do they? I never shot a wedding without the light, I don't even ask for their permission.
I use a dimmable light to add light upto the level were I need it. I never had complains about using light in 15 years. The customer knows I want to make the best footage for them. They have no message in dark and grainy stuff afterwards.
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Old February 7th, 2006, 05:41 AM   #10
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QUOTE Marc Colemont. I use a dimmable light to add light upto the level were I need it. I never had complains about using light in 15 years. The customer knows I want to make the best footage for them. They have no message in dark and grainy stuff afterwards.[/QUOTE]


At last, some posts on event lighting I can relate to!. I cannot believe any bride would rather watch dark grainy images of the biggest day of her life for the rest of her life than having one or two extra lights amongst all the other lights around (daylight, lightbulbs, flashbulbs (and not just from the official photog but from countless friends and relatives) I have never met one.

As long as you soften the light with a diffusion filter or even a soft box then how can this be a problem. I have also been looking at dimmable lights, the IDX X3 LED is really interesting me at the moment. I think the problem has arisen by some videographers blasting the bride with too big a light, no softeneing and being too intrusive with it. There is a series on TV in England at the moment called Wedding Stories (great viewing) One recent episode, which is filmed by the BBC showed a couple getting into a limo after the event. There was a private videographer in the limo with a MASSIVE cam light blasting back at the BBC crew, it made the limo look like Blackpool Illuminations! (Las Vegas in US)

With regards to SSE lets hope this issue has now died a natural death. Yes I had SSE problems with my unit but it went back to JVC and, yes, it CAN be fixed, mine has.

Marc, it is really encouraging to hear that this camera can be used in HDV progressive mode for weddings, I have had these images in my head of what a wedding could look like in HDV and really want to do it! I might be brave enough to try it now. One other point, how much of an issue is dropout for you? Do you use a firestore yet?

Edwin, I will experiment with your suggestion for 480/60p (576/50p for here in the UK). I have always been a bit dubious about using DV and HDV on the same project but I suppose a slowmotion sequence is the one time you could get away with it. It is usually a good idea to put a bit of smooth blur on the clip anyway in post. The one time I always use slomo is for the confetti throw. That would look like c--p in 24/25/30p! And I think the motion smoothing function of the camera is not something I would ever use, it just does not work for me, you end up with judder AND smear!!!

Cheers

Tony
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Old February 7th, 2006, 07:17 AM   #11
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I ordered this cool-lux with a soft box from BH: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...goryNavigation
Does anyone had experience with it?
I read somewhere in this forum that the IDX led light has a strange green tone... I don't know how reliable that source is, but the only advantage I find in it is the low power consumption.

Tony, I wouldn't use different formats on the same project. But if you really want to try it I advize you to use different tapes.
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Old February 7th, 2006, 07:39 AM   #12
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Tony, no I don't have a Firestore yet. It's on my list.
I use HDV-rack were I can. Great tool.
The videolight I use is from Bebob in Germany:
http://www.bebob.de/international/lux_eng.html
You can even screw it on a microphone stand or hold it in your hand.
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Old February 7th, 2006, 08:29 AM   #13
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I had a friend bring in an old wedding tape and she asked me to fix it because it was 'too dark'. Apparently the guests complained about the video light and the camera man relented and turned it off. These guest were not the paying clients!

I shoot corporated events, and much of this is poor lighting for power-point presentations. Usually I'm too far away, in the back of the room, where a camer light would be useless. In my canon XL1s I can get a decent picture at 6db with very little noise, and it's acceptable. How does the picture of the HD100 hold up in the camera if I have to crank up the gain?

Pete
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Old February 7th, 2006, 11:32 AM   #14
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I'm going to quit posting on this board (I get the message folks). I'm justing going to rent these cams and judge all this for myself. No harm done (I'm not pointing fingers). It just ain't working here.

Pete
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Old February 7th, 2006, 12:50 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Ferling
I'm going to quit posting on this board (I get the message folks). I'm justing going to rent these cams and judge all this for myself. No harm done (I'm not pointing fingers). It just ain't working here.

Pete
Peter,

Please don't leave because it took longer than 3 hours to get a response to your question on a Tuesday morning! The benefit of dvinfo is that most of us are working professionals, the downside is that you usually only hear from us on lunch breaks, evenings and weekends.

To answer your question "How does the picture of the HD100 hold up in the camera if I have to crank up the gain?" :

Video noise/picture "quality" in any camera is hard to quantify because it is up to subjective opinion. If you compare the current batch of 1/3" HD cameras (as Adam Wilt, Barry Green and company did) you will find that it may comparatively has a little more noise than the Canon.
Obviously every stepped increase in gain will accentuate the noise.
However, the HD100 has some professional gamma manipulation features that allow it to become very sensitive without adding gain & noise.
For example, you can manually increase the gamma response to create a low-light setting on 0dB gain that will be the equivalent of a DVX100 in +12dB (according to my own tests.) Cranking up the gamma response does add noise, but it doesn't look like random "video gain noise." I would liken it to film grain - which I find quite appealing.

So it becomes an apples and oranges comparison if you don't take gamma response into consideration. I think you are wise to borrow some cameras and test these things for yourself. Play with the standard gamma response and see what happens in a dark room. You may be pleasantly surprised!
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