"True Colour" Scene File

Marc Colemont · February 20th, 2006, 04:48 AM

Hi Paolo,

I have a question for you, since you used HDVrack to calibrate the DSC chart. When I output the build-in SMPTE Colorbars of the HD-100 into HDVrack, the colors are not in the 'spot' on the vectorscope. They have a considerable offset.
As far as I can follow with the HDVrack is that the original software has been made for DV which is using another colorspace then the HDV ITU-709.
I asked this question to the Serious Magic guys if they use the 709 color space or not when using HDV, but their forum if offline already for several weeks. So I have no feedback back yet from them.
My question now is: When you calibrated the DSC chart on HDVrack, is it now right or not considering the build-in color bar is not showing up right.
My 'real' Philips Vectorscope is in the repairshop, so I cannot verify.

Paolo Ciccone · February 20th, 2006, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc Colemont

Hi Paolo,
I have a question for you, since you used HDVrack to calibrate the DSC chart. When I output the build-in SMPTE Colorbars of the HD-100 into HDVrack, the colors are not in the 'spot' on the vectorscope. They have a considerable offset.
As far as I can follow with the HDVrack is that the original software has been made for DV which is using another colorspace then the HDV ITU-709.

Marc do you have the HDV pack?

--
Paolo

David Cubbage · February 20th, 2006, 10:26 AM

This is my first post to the forum and I must say that I am very impressed with how you guys are prepared to share your valuable knowledge and experience with us lesser mortals.
Thanks to Paulo for your scene file. I used your scene file settings to set up my HD100 at the weekend and shot some test footage to see the results. The colour reproduction is very accurate to the props I used in the scenes which were shot in my small studio using my stills lighting rig which are flash units with controled modeling lamps. I also shot some exterior shots and bearing in mind that it was a damp, overcast day the footage was very clean and had no colour casts that I usually experience under these shooting conditions. I must say I liked the resulted image quality; I have been playing around with the Cine Gamma scene settings and found that in some conditions whites and blacks seem to suffer from strange colour casts. Like Paulo I want to see as accurate a colour rendition as I could get so what colours I see with my eyes is reproduced on tape and carryout any adjustments to look in post.
Unfortunately I don't have enough knowledge to post any of my test footage here for you to see; as soon as I get it together I will certainly share my results with you; especially as I was also testing out my new Fujinon wide angle lens which I know from various posts that the community is eager here about. From my point of view this new lens improves the picture qulaity beyond any of my expectations; the images are a lot crisper and sharper than on the stock lens. There is also a lot more control for DOF. I believe it's well worth the investment I made and has confirmed my belief in this camera as a serious bit of kit for the independant film maker, especially when you consider it's price.

Please forgive me for my descriptions as I am not a video techy; I do not work professionally in the video industry, I work in the film industry making armour and props and it has always been my ambition to get behind the camera to produce my own independant features. This was the main reason I chose the HD100 after trying out a demo unit. I was struck by it's picture quality and it's filmic look to the footage. We have already shot our first short and are halfway through editing so I am getting to know the camera's strengths and weaknesses. I must say I love the camera and have been glued to the posts on this forum so I can get the best out of this wonderful camera. I am not, in any way a video tech, but I am eager to learn. Unfortuanately, I use FCP5 in my workflow so have not been able to capture my footage nativly, as yet. I am using a Kona card and converting to another codec.

This is a great forum and now I have actually dipped my toe in the water, I am sure that I will be a regular contributor.

Marc Colemont · February 20th, 2006, 11:03 AM

Paolo, yes I have the HDV pack. You want me to do some tests?
I don't have any DSC chart though...

Paolo Ciccone · February 20th, 2006, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc Colemont

Paolo, yes I have the HDV pack. You want me to do some tests?
I don't have any DSC chart though...

No Marc, I was just asking to be sure that you have the HD Monitor option avalable. It's my understading that the HD pack implements the right colorspace for HD monitoring. I didn't test the camera bars with DVRack but I'll do it soon.

--
Paolo

Paolo Ciccone · February 20th, 2006, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Cubbage

Thanks to Paulo for your scene file. I used your scene file settings to set up my HD100 at the weekend and shot some test footage to see the results. The colour reproduction is very accurate to the props I used in the scenes which were shot in my small studio using my stills lighting rig which are flash units with controled modeling lamps.

You're very welcome. Glad to hear that it works for you too.

--
Paolo

Paolo Ciccone · February 20th, 2006, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen L. Noe

If you get a moment can you load my scene file and take a look at if for me on your chart?

Hey Steve.

I copied your file directy to my SD card, configured the camera to the same values of my test by using my configuration as a reference. I then loaded your file, set WB and recorded 7 seconds of chart and took the same snapshots I took with my previous test.
Your files are here:

7-second .m2t clip
Snapshot used for histogram
Histogram
WFM and VScope

Hope this helps.

--
Paolo

Stephen L. Noe · February 20th, 2006, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paolo Ciccone

Hey Steve.

I copied your file directy to my SD card, configured the camera to the same values of my test by using my configuration as a reference. I then loaded your file, set WB and recorded 7 seconds of chart and took the same snapshots I took with my previous test.
Your files are here:

7-second .m2t clip
Snapshot used for histogram
Histogram
WFM and VScope

Hope this helps.

--
Paolo

Thank you for doing that. Your chart reveals what I was trying to accomplish. Pulling the reds down. I think the red's are hot in all my RGBY separations. Now with this scene file the skin tone is better (to me).

Lattitude zoomed to 88mm
Skin tone on a fair person.

Thanks for doing that...

Efrain Gomez · February 20th, 2006, 07:10 PM

Lattitude zoomed to 88mm
Skin tone on a fair person.
...............................................

For those two files: was that shot in 24p mode?

Paolo Ciccone · February 20th, 2006, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen L. Noe

Thanks for doing that...

You're very welcome Stephen.

--
Paolo

Luis Otero · February 20th, 2006, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paolo Ciccone

BTW, Tim, big mistake on my side about the color shift on the Cinelike and your CineWide config. I did't realize that switching to another config changes the white balance. I balanced at the beginning of the test and never changed it, assuming that the camera kept the 3200K value. My apologies, I'm gonna retake those samples after setting WB at every switch. I'll update the article asap.

Take care.

--
Paolo
http://www.paolociccone.com

Paolo:

Have you updated yet the article including Tim's recommendations/suggestions?

Thanks,

Luis

Stephen L. Noe · February 20th, 2006, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Efrain Gomez

Lattitude zoomed to 88mm
Skin tone on a fair person.
...............................................

For those two files: was that shot in 24p mode?

30p mode...

Paolo Ciccone · February 20th, 2006, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luis Otero

Paolo:
Have you updated yet the article including Tim's recommendations/suggestions?

Hi Luis.

Yes, I reshot all the samples after setting the WB for each file. The new version has been posted Saturday so the current snapshots, clips and histogram charts are the correct one.

One thing that I didn't mention is that I did some additional tests for the sharpening control. Im quite convinced that the disabling the sharpening blurs the images a bit while keeping the sharpening at minimum seems to be the right setting in order to get a nice sharp image that is still soft enough to not look like video.
I also checked the effect of incremental sharpening with a WFM and you can clearly see the addition of video noise.

--
Paolo
http://www.paolociccone.com

Luis Otero · February 21st, 2006, 12:39 AM

Paolo,

Thanks a lot for this great effort from your part, specially because you have been willing to share all the information with this cybercommunity.

In terms of white balance: you use the settings and then WB, or WB and then load the settings? I remember that that was an issue brought by Tim with his efforts. If I do not recall incorrectly, I think we needed to load the setting, then do the WB. I assume is the same you have found...

In regards to the sharpening, what is the setting you particularly recommend?

Again, thanks!

Luis

Marc Colemont · February 21st, 2006, 03:42 AM

Paolo,

FYI, The DVRack software guys confirmed there is a color space problem in the HDV mode for the HD-100. It uses 609 currently. It will be fixed in the next patch.

February 20th, 2006, 10:26 AM	#18
David Cubbage New Boot Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 9	True Colour Scene File This is my first post to the forum and I must say that I am very impressed with how you guys are prepared to share your valuable knowledge and experience with us lesser mortals. Thanks to Paulo for your scene file. I used your scene file settings to set up my HD100 at the weekend and shot some test footage to see the results. The colour reproduction is very accurate to the props I used in the scenes which were shot in my small studio using my stills lighting rig which are flash units with controled modeling lamps. I also shot some exterior shots and bearing in mind that it was a damp, overcast day the footage was very clean and had no colour casts that I usually experience under these shooting conditions. I must say I liked the resulted image quality; I have been playing around with the Cine Gamma scene settings and found that in some conditions whites and blacks seem to suffer from strange colour casts. Like Paulo I want to see as accurate a colour rendition as I could get so what colours I see with my eyes is reproduced on tape and carryout any adjustments to look in post. Unfortunately I don't have enough knowledge to post any of my test footage here for you to see; as soon as I get it together I will certainly share my results with you; especially as I was also testing out my new Fujinon wide angle lens which I know from various posts that the community is eager here about. From my point of view this new lens improves the picture qulaity beyond any of my expectations; the images are a lot crisper and sharper than on the stock lens. There is also a lot more control for DOF. I believe it's well worth the investment I made and has confirmed my belief in this camera as a serious bit of kit for the independant film maker, especially when you consider it's price. Please forgive me for my descriptions as I am not a video techy; I do not work professionally in the video industry, I work in the film industry making armour and props and it has always been my ambition to get behind the camera to produce my own independant features. This was the main reason I chose the HD100 after trying out a demo unit. I was struck by it's picture quality and it's filmic look to the footage. We have already shot our first short and are halfway through editing so I am getting to know the camera's strengths and weaknesses. I must say I love the camera and have been glued to the posts on this forum so I can get the best out of this wonderful camera. I am not, in any way a video tech, but I am eager to learn. Unfortuanately, I use FCP5 in my workflow so have not been able to capture my footage nativly, as yet. I am using a Kona card and converting to another codec. This is a great forum and now I have actually dipped my toe in the water, I am sure that I will be a regular contributor.

February 20th, 2006, 07:10 PM	#24
Efrain Gomez Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: salinas, california Posts: 41	24p? Lattitude zoomed to 88mm Skin tone on a fair person. ............................................... For those two files: was that shot in 24p mode?

February 21st, 2006, 12:39 AM	#29
Luis Otero Major Player Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Fort Dodge, IA Posts: 221	Thanks! Paolo, Thanks a lot for this great effort from your part, specially because you have been willing to share all the information with this cybercommunity. In terms of white balance: you use the settings and then WB, or WB and then load the settings? I remember that that was an issue brought by Tim with his efforts. If I do not recall incorrectly, I think we needed to load the setting, then do the WB. I assume is the same you have found... In regards to the sharpening, what is the setting you particularly recommend? Again, thanks! Luis

February 20th, 2006, 04:48 AM	#16
Marc Colemont Major Player Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Belgium Posts: 695	Hi Paolo, I have a question for you, since you used HDVrack to calibrate the DSC chart. When I output the build-in SMPTE Colorbars of the HD-100 into HDVrack, the colors are not in the 'spot' on the vectorscope. They have a considerable offset. As far as I can follow with the HDVrack is that the original software has been made for DV which is using another colorspace then the HDV ITU-709. I asked this question to the Serious Magic guys if they use the 709 color space or not when using HDV, but their forum if offline already for several weeks. So I have no feedback back yet from them. My question now is: When you calibrated the DSC chart on HDVrack, is it now right or not considering the build-in color bar is not showing up right. My 'real' Philips Vectorscope is in the repairshop, so I cannot verify.

February 20th, 2006, 11:03 AM	#19
Marc Colemont Major Player Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Belgium Posts: 695	Paolo, yes I have the HDV pack. You want me to do some tests? I don't have any DSC chart though...

February 21st, 2006, 03:42 AM	#30
Marc Colemont Major Player Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Belgium Posts: 695	Paolo, FYI, The DVRack software guys confirmed there is a color space problem in the HDV mode for the HD-100. It uses 609 currently. It will be fixed in the next patch.