Live Switching w/HD100

Brian Chow · April 11th, 2006, 10:16 AM

I have an HD cam deck, borrowed it, big $$$, it doesn't have component in either. I can't believe I overlooked the most important part. I guess I just took it for granted that it would be easy to record - Boy was I wrong. This seems to be one big Rubik's cube. And this is just video, still have to worry about audio. Thank-you everyone for their feedback. If you hear of anything else, please let me know.

Brian

Brian Chow · April 11th, 2006, 10:19 AM

Oh Stephen, I am trying to output to HDV tape. Then we will do a little post in HDV, render it out and then to HDCam for broadcast. The mixer is just to save some time in post (mainly loading the footage) One show is a talk show, the other is a cooking show.

Thanks

Carl Hicks · April 11th, 2006, 09:20 PM

Hi Brian,

The missing link is, as you said, is a device that will convert the analog component HD from the Roland switcher to HDV over firewire, so you can record it on the BR-HD50U. A box that does this has to contain an MPEG-2 encoder, and therein lies the rub. HDV cameras have integrated MPEG-2 encoders, and because of economies of scale, the cost is reasonable. But stand-alone MPEG-2 encoders has thus far been very expensive. I hope that some nice converter company like AJA or Miranda will build the box we need at a resonable cost someday.

In the meantime, you may have to record to a high-dollar HD format that has analog ins, or to a computer-based system.

Regards, Carl

Stephen L. Noe · April 11th, 2006, 09:47 PM

My thoughts as well Carl. Brian, why not just bypass the deck altogether and go directly into an NLE's timeline or logging tool? It seems like the best solution all the way around. I didn't get what NLE you're using but does it support Xena or Aja or Decklink or have it's own break out box that supports HD-SDI (a la ChromeHD or VelocityHD)? If so why not capture using MP@HL or uncompressed 2vuy? That would be the best direct to air solution anyhow and in the end you can dump your show to HDV tape for archiving.

Andy Robertson · April 12th, 2006, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen L. Noe

My thoughts as well Carl. Brian, why not just bypass the deck altogether and go directly into an NLE's timeline or logging tool? It seems like the best solution all the way around. I didn't get what NLE you're using but does it support Xena or Aja or Decklink or have it's own break out box that supports HD-SDI (a la ChromeHD or VelocityHD)? If so why not capture using MP@HL or uncompressed 2vuy? That would be the best direct to air solution anyhow and in the end you can dump your show to HDV tape for archiving.

Hey guys,

Just read through the thread here, I agree with Stephen. Capturing straight to a hard drive would be the least expensive route....kind of a pain in the neck for archiving if you need to or if you have several shows in the pipeline at any one time--storage might get expensive. You should check out Cineform's products...Their codec sounds really efficient.

On the other hand, AJA's Componenet to HD-SDI converter is pretty slick. (I work at a TV station & our best engineer likes it so that's good enough for me!) You could use it to go to a deck w/ an HD-SDI in.

And one last thing, there aren't any external sync inputs on the camera...in order for the switcher to do dissolves, keys, & clean cut everything has to be in sync. Whether generated by the switcher or another source, the cameras need to have a sync input as far as I know.

Anyway...there's my 2 cents...now I'm broke.

Brian Chow · April 12th, 2006, 05:07 PM

I didn't say what NLE that I'm using because I haven't decided which is the best for this appication. We currently have 2 SD velocity systems but for HDV, I think it looks like it will be a Mac. Can you get breakout boxes for Mac's? XLR, component in/out? Will a Mac take HDV in from a component or does it only work with firewire or some sort of converter. Sorry I don't know a lot about this HDV stuff, just trying to learn. Had the cameras for a while now but have just used them for shooting SD. Time for the big leap now.
Thanks again to everyone for the help. If i can ever offer any help, please do not hesitate to ask.

Brian

John Mitchell · April 17th, 2006, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Chow

I didn't say what NLE that I'm using because I haven't decided which is the best for this appication. We currently have 2 SD velocity systems but for HDV, I think it looks like it will be a Mac. Can you get breakout boxes for Mac's? XLR, component in/out? Will a Mac take HDV in from a component or does it only work with firewire or some sort of converter. Sorry I don't know a lot about this HDV stuff, just trying to learn. Had the cameras for a while now but have just used them for shooting SD. Time for the big leap now.
Thanks again to everyone for the help. If i can ever offer any help, please do not hesitate to ask.

Brian

Kona LH... (see AJA's website).. not HDV, but will record direct to DVCProHD, and other formats.

John Mitchell · April 17th, 2006, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laszlo Horvath

John, how much space we need on harddrive for 720/60p recording ?
And what kined of file the Xena record? .m2t?

Laszlo

Not sure on space - if you go down the Cineform route you need a powerful computer as the card does not compress for this format in hardware. Cineform can record at different quality levels I believe, but I'd check with them.

Either that or you record in a still frame stream - ask AJA for formats and data rates..

Laszlo Horvath · April 17th, 2006, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Mitchell

Not sure on space - if you go down the Cineform route you need a powerful computer as the card does not compress for this format in hardware. Cineform can record at different quality levels I believe, but I'd check with them.

Either that or you record in a still frame stream - ask AJA for formats and data rates..

Thanks John!

I have no problem with my computers. I use dual dualcore AMDs with lots of RAM.
May I call AJA's tech support and find out the recorded file type, and size.

Laszlo

John Mitchell · April 18th, 2006, 02:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laszlo Horvath

Thanks John!

I have no problem with my computers. I use dual dualcore AMDs with lots of RAM.
May I call AJA's tech support and find out the recorded file type, and size.

Laszlo

You can contact AJA about the native Xena formats or read about them here:
http://www.aja.com/products_xena.html

check out the PDF link for more detail on file formats..

Cineform is a separate product with a separate charge - read here:
http://www.cineform.com/products/ProspectHD.htm

David Newman of Cineform is quite active on this board so he would be able to answer any questions you might have (better than me) - you can also search the forum for his contributions.

Lawrence Feeley · April 18th, 2006, 10:03 AM

And straight into the firewire input of an HD100 or deck at 720P?

Tim Dashwood · April 18th, 2006, 03:22 PM

I just flipped through the manual for the Edirol v440. It is a very cool device, but I am racking my brain trying to figure out a way to go back to HDV live.
If you can't afford to rent a HDCAM or DVCPROHD deck, then the best I could suggest is to use a component HD capture card and capture the line cut to a mac or PC with a fast enough RAID array, and then only go back to the original tapes if you need to.

Once your material is on hard drive, you can always re-encode it back to HDV via firewire - but this would be alot of trouble for a long show.

Of course, you can take the SD S-Video out and record to the deck for a NTSC or PAL line-cut.

For those interested, here's what the back of the thing looks like:
http://www.edirol.com/products/hirez...440hd_rear.jpg

Maybe Focus will invent a HDV version of the MX-4 soon? I'll keep an eye out for these types of products at NAB next week.

Stephen L. Noe · April 18th, 2006, 06:16 PM

It is not possible with the BR50 deck. You'd have to split it and then capture it back to a timeline. You could select uncompressed to the timeline but then would run into a hard disk speed bottleneck, or you could encode to mpeg2 (MP@HL) which would be capturing to HDV's program stream but you'd need some horses for processors to keep up (probably liquid cooled dual xeon or dual P4HT on the PC side). It's do-able on for not alot of outlay.

Shawn Alyasiri · April 19th, 2006, 05:57 PM

Hi there.

I noticed the thread, and thought I'd let you know that I'm a user/dealer for Analog Way. I'm meeting with my sales manager on Sunday just before NAB to discuss special show pricing on their Diventix switcher. It will be awesome and universal for IMAG (HDSDI,SDI,DVI,HD/An Component, composite, ins, etc), and I will definitely be looking into options for routing out to digital decks for recording etc.

Here is some product information for you (you can throw almost anything at it (in & out), and prepare for your HD integration:

http://www.analogway.com/downloads/p...ntiX_novVA.pdf

Likewise, my site/info is:

Shawn Alyasiri: www.renaissancevideo.com

Please don't hesitate to give me a yell. Like I said - I buy this stuff for the shows I do, but extend special pricing for sales on installs, interested parties, etc. I know I'll be able to extend offers based around NAB purchases, etc.

Thanks!

Shawn

Stephen L. Noe · April 25th, 2006, 07:21 PM

OMG: Did Edirol step up to the plate with HDV/DV switchers? Anyone out there at NAB can you check into this please?

Edirol Press Release on HDV switcher

This may be your answer...

April 11th, 2006, 09:20 PM	#18
Carl Hicks JVC America Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: McKinney, TX Posts: 516	Live HD switcher recording Hi Brian, The missing link is, as you said, is a device that will convert the analog component HD from the Roland switcher to HDV over firewire, so you can record it on the BR-HD50U. A box that does this has to contain an MPEG-2 encoder, and therein lies the rub. HDV cameras have integrated MPEG-2 encoders, and because of economies of scale, the cost is reasonable. But stand-alone MPEG-2 encoders has thus far been very expensive. I hope that some nice converter company like AJA or Miranda will build the box we need at a resonable cost someday. In the meantime, you may have to record to a high-dollar HD format that has analog ins, or to a computer-based system. Regards, Carl

April 18th, 2006, 10:03 AM	#26
Lawrence Feeley New Boot Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: New Jersey Posts: 6	Brian, can't you go firewire out of your switcher? And straight into the firewire input of an HD100 or deck at 720P?

April 18th, 2006, 03:22 PM	#27
Tim Dashwood Wrangler Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Toronto, ON, Canada Posts: 3,637	I just flipped through the manual for the Edirol v440. It is a very cool device, but I am racking my brain trying to figure out a way to go back to HDV live. If you can't afford to rent a HDCAM or DVCPROHD deck, then the best I could suggest is to use a component HD capture card and capture the line cut to a mac or PC with a fast enough RAID array, and then only go back to the original tapes if you need to. Once your material is on hard drive, you can always re-encode it back to HDV via firewire - but this would be alot of trouble for a long show. Of course, you can take the SD S-Video out and record to the deck for a NTSC or PAL line-cut. For those interested, here's what the back of the thing looks like: http://www.edirol.com/products/hirez...440hd_rear.jpg Maybe Focus will invent a HDV version of the MX-4 soon? I'll keep an eye out for these types of products at NAB next week. __________________ Tim Dashwood

April 19th, 2006, 05:57 PM	#29
Shawn Alyasiri Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Bloomington, IL Posts: 256	Universal Switcher Hi there. I noticed the thread, and thought I'd let you know that I'm a user/dealer for Analog Way. I'm meeting with my sales manager on Sunday just before NAB to discuss special show pricing on their Diventix switcher. It will be awesome and universal for IMAG (HDSDI,SDI,DVI,HD/An Component, composite, ins, etc), and I will definitely be looking into options for routing out to digital decks for recording etc. Here is some product information for you (you can throw almost anything at it (in & out), and prepare for your HD integration: http://www.analogway.com/downloads/p...ntiX_novVA.pdf Likewise, my site/info is: Shawn Alyasiri: www.renaissancevideo.com Please don't hesitate to give me a yell. Like I said - I buy this stuff for the shows I do, but extend special pricing for sales on installs, interested parties, etc. I know I'll be able to extend offers based around NAB purchases, etc. Thanks! Shawn

April 11th, 2006, 10:16 AM	#16
Brian Chow Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Vancouver, B.C. Canada Posts: 105	I have an HD cam deck, borrowed it, big $$$, it doesn't have component in either. I can't believe I overlooked the most important part. I guess I just took it for granted that it would be easy to record - Boy was I wrong. This seems to be one big Rubik's cube. And this is just video, still have to worry about audio. Thank-you everyone for their feedback. If you hear of anything else, please let me know. Brian

April 11th, 2006, 10:19 AM	#17
Brian Chow Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Vancouver, B.C. Canada Posts: 105	Oh Stephen, I am trying to output to HDV tape. Then we will do a little post in HDV, render it out and then to HDCam for broadcast. The mixer is just to save some time in post (mainly loading the footage) One show is a talk show, the other is a cooking show. Thanks

April 11th, 2006, 09:47 PM	#19
Stephen L. Noe Trustee Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,214	My thoughts as well Carl. Brian, why not just bypass the deck altogether and go directly into an NLE's timeline or logging tool? It seems like the best solution all the way around. I didn't get what NLE you're using but does it support Xena or Aja or Decklink or have it's own break out box that supports HD-SDI (a la ChromeHD or VelocityHD)? If so why not capture using MP@HL or uncompressed 2vuy? That would be the best direct to air solution anyhow and in the end you can dump your show to HDV tape for archiving.

April 12th, 2006, 05:07 PM	#21
Brian Chow Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Vancouver, B.C. Canada Posts: 105	I didn't say what NLE that I'm using because I haven't decided which is the best for this appication. We currently have 2 SD velocity systems but for HDV, I think it looks like it will be a Mac. Can you get breakout boxes for Mac's? XLR, component in/out? Will a Mac take HDV in from a component or does it only work with firewire or some sort of converter. Sorry I don't know a lot about this HDV stuff, just trying to learn. Had the cameras for a while now but have just used them for shooting SD. Time for the big leap now. Thanks again to everyone for the help. If i can ever offer any help, please do not hesitate to ask. Brian

April 18th, 2006, 06:16 PM	#28
Stephen L. Noe Trustee Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,214	It is not possible with the BR50 deck. You'd have to split it and then capture it back to a timeline. You could select uncompressed to the timeline but then would run into a hard disk speed bottleneck, or you could encode to mpeg2 (MP@HL) which would be capturing to HDV's program stream but you'd need some horses for processors to keep up (probably liquid cooled dual xeon or dual P4HT on the PC side). It's do-able on for not alot of outlay.

April 25th, 2006, 07:21 PM	#30
Stephen L. Noe Trustee Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,214	OMG: Did Edirol step up to the plate with HDV/DV switchers? Anyone out there at NAB can you check into this please? Edirol Press Release on HDV switcher This may be your answer...