16mm lens for JVC-HD200U? or super 16mm?

[Tim Dashwood]

Originally Posted by Keith Forman

Which would be the better lens in general? The Super 16, or the 13x Fuji? What are decent lenses, and what might they cost?

In regards to sharpness it would depend on what 16mm format lens you used. The 13x 1/3" zoom is probably as sharp as it gets for a 720P CCD.
16mm lenses need to resolve accurately because the frame size is so small anyway, but it isn't as small as 1/3" CCD. I'm hoping the designers of the optics in this adapter have taken that into account.
I can't wait to check this out with a good set of fast Zeiss primes.

I imagine there are three distinct markets for this adapter:

1. Independent filmmakers comfortable with S16/16 as a format, but simply cannot afford the costs involved in stock/processing/transfer/optical blowup.

2. Television Productions already shooting S16/16.

3. Film schools with an inventory of 16mm lenses.


Since the unit at the show was a mock-up/prototype there are still many unknowns:
- does it truly maintain the field of view of S16 or 16mm?
- will there be a stop loss (or gain?)
- is it composed of pure optical elements or is some sort of relay lens with GG resolver? (indications are that it is unlike typical "mini35" style adapters.)
-does it maintain the depth of field characteristics of the same lens on a S16/16 body?
-does it require a backfocus adjuster?
-what will the retail price be? (someone mentioned a price in another post, but I was told by Craig Yanagi they still do not know how they will price it yet or exactly when it will be released.)

[Luis Otero]

Is it safe to assume that the HZ-CA13U 16mm PL mount will work with the HD100?

Luis

[Nate Weaver]

It will work, but the adapter was designed for the image flip feature in the new cameras. You'll have to flip in post if you want to use on the 100.

[Joe Carney]

I think Cineform might support image flipping during capture. They developed it for the RedRock Micro setup and this is similar.
btw, didn't Arri announce some new S16 primes at the show. Some of it's a blur with sensory overload.

It was nice meeting you Nate, and you didn't run away screaming. I'm impressed.:)

[Luis Otero]

Would it be a "dream" or a true possibility to get from JVC a HD100 firmware upgrade to have that flipping capability? Anyways, right now we have the mirror image flipping capability in the current firmware (accessed through the service menu)...

Luis

[Tim Dashwood]

Originally Posted by Luis Otero

right now we have the mirror image flipping capability in the current firmware (accessed through the service menu)...

Has anyone ever been able to make that feature work?

[Guy Barwood]

"He claimed, there is no ground glass taget -- rather, the lens -- or lens system -- simply alters the light path coming from the mounted lens so that it lands on the CCD prism."

I thought of this approach a while back to get full frame FOV out of a APS sensor in a DSLR. I wonder if this is what they have done, cudos to them if they have.

[Luis Otero]

Originally Posted by Tim Dashwood

Has anyone ever been able to make that feature work?

If the feature you are referring to is the mirror image flipping, I have done it through the service menu. Just for fun I need to clarify, because I do not see the point of aquiring footage this way (maybe I am missing something here...). Maybe JVC original intention was to have the other flipping available for the Mini35 and other adapters...and they did it wrong. Maybe that is why it will be available in the 200 series.

Luis

[Barry Green]

Originally Posted by Guy Barwood

"He claimed, there is no ground glass taget -- rather, the lens -- or lens system -- simply alters the light path coming from the mounted lens so that it lands on the CCD prism."

If that's the case, then it's functioning like a relay lens, or basically a re-focuser. This would not change the depth-of-field characteristics to match 16mm/S16, so the DOF would be identical to the existing HD100 lens at equivalent focal lengths (but of course it also wouldn't introduce the softness inherent in a ground-glass approach either).

Very nice in any case; there is some wonderful 16/S16 glass out there and this could open up a number of lens options, at least as far as zooms and telephotos go. Not too many 16mm lenses wider than around 8mm so don't look for too much on the wide end, but I've got a Zeiss 10-100 that I'd like to try, just to see how it holds up!

[Mark Silva]

Originally Posted by Luis Otero

If the feature you are referring to is the mirror image flipping, I have done it through the service menu. Just for fun I need to clarify, because I do not see the point of aquiring footage this way (maybe I am missing something here...). Maybe JVC original intention was to have the other flipping available for the Mini35 and other adapters...and they did it wrong. Maybe that is why it will be available in the 200 series.

Luis

Luis, can you share with us how to do that?

I've got access to Arri S16 glass and I KNOW I'm going to be needing this feature.

[Guy Barwood]

"If that's the case, then it's functioning like a relay lens, or basically a re-focuser. This would not change the depth-of-field characteristics to match 16mm/S16, so the DOF would be identical to the existing HD100 lens at equivalent focal lengths"

Can you help me understand this please. My thought was that you are only resizing the area the image is being focused on with the lens (reducing it to march the 1/3" sensor, not changing the image itself. Therefore the lens would provide the same DOF and FOV as it would on a sensor it was natively designed for.

[Andrew Young]

There is a lot of confusion surrounding this product, probably because it is not yet fully developed. But the way it was described to me by several JVC reps at the booth is that a lens on the adaptor will maintain the FOV and DOF characteristics that it has on a S16mm camera. For example, if you placed a 9mm Ziess Superspeed on this adaptor it would have a much greater FOV than you would get at 9mm on a 1/3" lens - more like a 4mm. It supposedly does this by using reducing optics that shrink the image so that you don't get the cropping that would occur if you were just using a physical adaptor, such as the Nikon. How they can do this without a ground glass is a mystery to me, but if true it is great news because it means that wide lenses on S16 would be just as wide on the HD100 and that there would be less DOP for the same relative frame size, since a longer length S16mm lens would be needed to achieve that frame size. (Hope this is clear).

The downside of the adaptor (as seen in it's current non-working prototype) is that it is about 5.5" long. I can't see mounting a zoom on it without getting a very front heavy rig. Also, they don't currently have plans for a handgrip. Of course, there are 3rd party solutions, but not with a record or focus assist button in them. In any case, hats off to JVC for attempting something that would be unheard of for most electronics companies.

[Barry Green]

If you hold up a 35mm lens in front of a 1/3" video camera, it won't deliver the DOF of a 35mm camera. It still delivers 1/3"-caliber DOF, just upside-down.

It's adding the ground glass inbetween that allows the DOF to be resolved on the projection screen (ground glass), which the 1/3" camera lens (or relay lens) can then photograph.

Now, if you put a still-camera lens right on a 1/3" camera body, you still get 1/3" DOF (witness the XL1/2 using the EOS adapter).

So unless there's some manner of projection screen, it would seem doubtful that the DOF properties of the 16mm lens will be preserved.

I don't know how the shrinking-the-frame element will affect this process; I can't think of another example of that offhand, and I figure that it will still deliver 1/3" DOF but you do raise an interesting point. Until the product's on the market we won't know for sure, so maybe they've worked some wizardry that does preserve 16mm DOF?

[Andrew Young]

Originally Posted by Barry Green

If you hold up a 35mm lens in front of a 1/3" video camera, it won't deliver the DOF of a 35mm camera. It still delivers 1/3"-caliber DOF, just upside-down.

Well, yes and no. A lens is a lens is a lens. In other words, a 10mm lens focused at a given distance will have the same DOP no matter what size imager you put it in front of. What's different is how cropped the image is. When we change focal length to achieve the same framing on two different imagers, that's when we change the DOP. (I don't mean to get technical on you Barry, I just don't want others to get more confused about a very confusing subject.)

Originally Posted by Barry Green

It's adding the ground glass in between that allows the DOF to be resolved on the projection screen (ground glass), which the 1/3" camera lens (or relay lens) can then photograph.

Now, if you put a still-camera lens right on a 1/3" camera body, you still get 1/3" DOF (witness the XL1/2 using the EOS adapter).

So unless there's some manner of projection screen, it would seem doubtful that the DOF properties of the 16mm lens will be preserved.

I completely agree with you here. I can't visualize how it could work. But the EOS adaptor doesn't have glass in it (based on memory, or at least nowhere near as much as this honker has in it) so it's hard to judge what's really going on. The question is, can .46x reducing optics shrink the image with the lens' original DOP intact? We probably won't know until someone's got one in hand.

[Steven Thomas]

I've got my fingers crossed.