hd100 a mature product. at DVinfo.net

Tom Workman · April 26th, 2006, 11:44 AM

This is my first post, but I have been following the unfolding story that has accompanied the hd100. From the split screen to good reviews, the mass recall and refurbishing. Objectively to me it seems peculiar that jvc would release new editions of the hd100 hybrid so soon. It seemed like yesterday a rep from JVC was on here touting how the HD100 was a mature product and that there was no plans to upgrade, or expand the line. Given, all companies will always release new products on an ongoing basis, but in this particular instance I don't know if I can take the plunge and buy a product from a company who's track record needs improvement when it comes to being upfront and honest with it's users about the technologies shortcomings. Statistically I gauge that owner satisfaction with the HD100 is generally high, but given that I am still reading posts on the existence of the sse, I am going to wait and see if this is a kink that JVC has worked out with the hd200 and hd250 before outfitting my production house with them. There hasn't been any word that it has been corrected, but if anyone hears any differently, please post the news and keep us in the loop.

Brian Luce · April 26th, 2006, 01:26 PM

Carl Hicks from JVC recently gave a definitive statement on the SSE, paraphrasing he said with proper calibration the sse is a non issue. he said if you have sse, send it in.

Tom Workman · April 26th, 2006, 02:18 PM

I suppose the big question is whether or not JVC will pre-calibrate the cameras before they hit the streets, or will owners be required to send the units far and away to be calibrated properly. I'd like to hear from JVC on this.

Carl Hicks · April 26th, 2006, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Workman

I suppose the big question is whether or not JVC will pre-calibrate the cameras before they hit the streets, or will owners be required to send the units far and away to be calibrated properly. I'd like to hear from JVC on this.

Hi Tom,

JVC issued an official statement about this a few months ago. Here is the link:

http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/f...re_id=13#chips

Over 12,000 of these cameras are in use today. A small percentage of those cameras have needed the SSE calibration touched up after being manufactured and shipped.

Your local reseller and local JVC Pro representative can help you work through any issues you need help with.

We also stand behind our product with a 30 Day failure policy and a 1 year parts & labor warranty.

Regards, Carl

Steve Mullen · April 27th, 2006, 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Workman

Objectively to me it seems peculiar that jvc would release new editions of the hd100 hybrid so soon.

SOOOOON! After seeing the HD200 it seems like next October (hopefully) is a very long time to wait.

I expect -- during the development phase of a new format -- to see new cameras every NAB. And, certainly a replacement camera every two years -- if not 18 months.

The reality is that those of us who prefer 60p would be very, very unhappy not to have learned we would be getting the HD200 in 6 months.

Those shooting HD news or building HD studios need the HD250 ASAP.

JVC should delay products so you don't think it "peculiar?" Give me a break!

Guy Barwood · April 27th, 2006, 05:52 AM

I'd have to agree that redesigning to add 60p rather than redesigning to address ALL SSF was a completely understandable decision. I do know that there are many other people like me however (event videographers), that even if we had the money (and many do, unlike me this year), won't buy these cameras because of SSF, even if JVC consider it a non issue. Unfortunately for JVC, it is what we believe that determines what we spend our money on not what JVC believe.

If they now start the process of the design of their next generation camera (or at least once the HD200/250 are complete) I'm sure one thing they will ensure is that there is absolutely no stigma of SSF associated with the new camera. I'll be a stunned mullet if this problem extends into the next generation model, and promptly buy a Sony or Panasonic.

This is definitely one case where it doesn't matter any more if the problem is prominent or even only rare. The damage has been done to the reputation and that cat just won't be getting back into its bag, so while there may be 12,000 sold, maybe there would be 24,000 sold if the SSF had never existed.

Jake Strickbine · April 27th, 2006, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Workman

Statistically I gauge that owner satisfaction with the HD100 is generally high, but given that I am still reading posts on the existence of the sse, I am going to wait and see if this is a kink that JVC has worked out with the hd200 and hd250 before outfitting my production house with them.

The best info we have right now suggests that the chips on the two new cameras will be the same as the ones in the HD100. It's the MPEG codec that's going to be upgraded as far as internals are concerned.

Occasional SSE is a design tradeoff that the engineers made in order to allow the HD100 to scan every pixel of a truly native 720p image with 1/3" chips. Most people have no issues at all with SSE. I demoed one of the early units (from September of 2005) from my local dealer for over a month, and never had a problem. I torture tested the heck out of the thing and never saw any SSE. I purchased my own HD100 a month ago, and have been shooting on it almost daily- again, without a single incident of SSE.

You should bear in mind that for every person who posts here about SSE issues, there are likely hundreds who haven't had any at all- the main difference between the two groups is that the people who haven't had any issues are much less likely to sound off than the people who are.

Carl Hicks · April 27th, 2006, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jake Strickbine

The best info we have right now suggests that the chips on the two new cameras will be the same as the ones in the HD100. It's the MPEG codec that's going to be upgraded as far as internals are concerned.

Occasional SSE is a design tradeoff that the engineers made in order to allow the HD100 to scan every pixel of a truly native 720p image with 1/3" chips. Most people have no issues at all with SSE. I demoed one of the early units (from September of 2005) from my local dealer for over a month, and never had a problem. I torture tested the heck out of the thing and never saw any SSE. I purchased my own HD100 a month ago, and have been shooting on it almost daily- again, without a single incident of SSE.

You should bear in mind that for every person who posts here about SSE issues, there are likely hundreds who haven't had any at all- the main difference between the two groups is that the people who haven't had any issues are much less likely to sound off than the people who are.

Thank you Jake for your words of reason!

Doug Harvey · April 27th, 2006, 09:43 AM

When the HD-100 first came out last year I was sitting on the fence reading all the reports, and all the posts that I could find on the HD-100 ,and Sony HD Cameras. I would download as many clips of any type of footage that was available on the net and looked at them on my HDTV through the computer, and I found I just loved the look of what the JVC HD-100 put out. The Sony seemed to have at the time too many clips showing full screen Lens Flares caused by anything bright in the picture, so I dismissed the Sony FX-1 and Z-1 as a choice of camera for me, as I do alot of events where theres not much control over the settings. I looked at some JVC HD-100 footage of cars going by with the lights on and the Lens Flares seemed to be alot less. I was just about to buy the JVC HD-100 when the first reports of the split screen came out, and this kind of problem gave me a scare, and I ended up buying a Panasonic DVX-100A.

Being new to video, I based my purchase of the DVX -100A on the opinions of others on these sites. But I found that I always felt I had made the wrong choice for me, when I did buy the Panasonic DVX-100A, rather then the JVC HD-100 because I like the HD look. The DVX-100A does a great job for the money in SD, but I still wanted HD. Several months go by and I still want an HD camera, but now I feel I know more about the product choices, and now the Canon H1 and Pansonic HVX200 are out.

This time around I followed a different approach on making a choice of which HD camera to buy. First purchase price of the camera itself and then the cost of storage and editing choices. For me, my choice came back to the JVC HD -100, I like the shoulder mount, the lens choices, the tape backup, and I like what I see on the big screen. I almost changed my mind again when I saw reports of the SSE issue come out again, but I still took the plunge and bought the JVC HD -100. The funny thing is, my new JVC HD - 100 camera works just the way I hoped it would, no issues period. The footage I now get is amazing for me, and anything wrong with the footage is directly related to my inexperience and talent. I bought my camera 3 weeks ago, and the new reports this week from NAB of the new HD-200 and HD-250 ( sure 60P would be nice) makes me wonder on how I might be able to swing getting another camera when they become available.

So my only advice to you is, do the research for yourself to find the right camera that suits your needs, all the current lower cost choices of HD cameras have there good and bad points. I think the JVC HD-100 SSE issue has been addressed, and should you be unlucky to get a camera with it, it will get fixed. If you check all the camera Forums you will find that all the current crop of cameras all have problems that do come out, it just seems the problems become and stay too long the main topic, that just seems to make you change your mind alot on which camera to choose. But while your on the fence, I will be out there with my new JVC HD - 100 with a big smile on my face. Have a good day!

David Parks · April 27th, 2006, 10:08 AM

Hear Hear. Well said Doug. I haven't had an SSE problem at all. When I ordered my HD 100 back in late January I saw the Canon HDV 1080i, the Z1, and even the HVX 200

I was able to talk to reps, see demos, touch the cameras.

Without getting into my opinions about each, because they all have their merits and short falls) I based my decision on what I would get in terms of return on investment. And for the look, the fact that this was not a "pixel shifted" CCD camera (1280x720p square pixel from the get go) and it looked very filmic to me.

Bottom line is ROI and after 6 projects (3 in dv24pa and 3 in HDV 30p), the camera has already saved me $3000 in camera rental in 3 months, therefore at this rate the camera will pay for itself in under 6 months. That is unheard of in the professional camera world of of the recent past where it could take 18 to 36 months to have a camera payoff. Oh and also at less than $6k I was able to pay cash.

Also cost of recording media, tapes that cost less than $10.00. Compared to P2 cards, well there is no comparison.

So there are always work arounds and problems in any production/workflow/camera system. After 20 years and 1000 productions, Murphy's law still applies. The first cameras I encountered in 1985 (Ikegami 730a and Sony M1a where terrible compared to the JVC.(Not even fair comparison). And I made money back then as well.

Guy Barwood · April 27th, 2006, 10:31 AM

I think you guys clearly missed the point of my post. Maybe I should just take Kens Freed's approach and claim you couldn't understand it unless I was able to see your eyes....

The point is, for many, the damage is done. Reputation is everything and while it takes one minute to spoil, it takes months or years to regenerate. Thats the flip side to marketing any company like JVC have to live with. The only way to make good is a new model with perfect performance. JVC isn't exactly a leading brand in Australia anyway, they can't avoid such negative press at all if they want a higher market share.

The second hand HD100/200/250 market in a few years will be well down on what it could be due to the models reputations for problems. It all a factor when deciding where to invest your money. Resale value is often a consideration.

Having said that, if I had to buy a semi-Pro HD camera now it would probably still be a HD101 becuase there is so much else to like about it, but only if I had too buy a HD camera because I know with my luck I will end up being plauged with SSF no questions asked ;-( JVC service in Australia has let me down before and I really don't want to be in a position where I would be so dependant on them. Even before the HD100 was released and we had this perfect camera on paper, most videographer collegues I was raving to about what a great camera it would be closed their discussions with final comments like "but its still a JVC camera". These are guys who have been in the industry for 20+ years. Remember that was not my opinions, but theirs.

Doug Harvey · April 27th, 2006, 11:49 AM

I'm sorry Guy but I think that you missed my Point!

I would say that I'm a more knowledgeable person now, then I was last year when I first started reading the information on these forums. I pointed out that I bought the DVX-100A based mostly on information that I could find out on these forums. I did not buy the JVC HD -100 at the same time based on the problems of SSE that seemed to be the hot discussion topic. These Forums bring ideas, and insight from almost everywhere in the world and that it helps users and new buyers make decisions on what to buy, or how to set up and get the most out of these cameras.

I can't speak for your experiences with JVC, but for me the impression I get from JVC in North America is that they are trying to get a great product out to the public as fast as they can. Sure maybe JVC had early production quality issues, but JVC went to alot of time and expense to correct these issues. As for how many people with a HD-100 had SSE well, we will never really know. All I can say is that if you check out every forum, there are issues, problems that seem to come up and stay the hot topic for discussion for ages.

Most new people try to gauge the value of products from people who are using the product, which I could not tell the difference between Actual Users and Non Users when I made my first decision. I took a different approach when finally making the plunge to get a HD camera but still choose the JVC HD-100, based more on my actual impressions and observations of the camera. I don't feel I have made the wrong decision this time.

I do have an "A" version, I do events, under all kinds of lighting conditions, have used 12db gain on some occasions for over 30 minutes, have started recording many times with no warm up to conserve battery power, still no SSE. I am a happy JVC HD-100 owner.

Jim Giberti · April 27th, 2006, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Workman

the mass recall and refurbishing. I am going to wait and see if this is a kink that JVC has worked out with the hd200 and hd250 before outfitting my production house with them. .

First of all there wan't any mass recall. Mis-information sucks.
Waiting is, of course, always an option for anyone and anything. However, you're taking with a bunch of people who are pretty much universally digging this camera and producing with it. If there were somehow problems that prevented us from doing the level of work we all expect with an HD camera, there would be an drumbeat of discontent on this board.
There isn't.

Jim Giberti · April 27th, 2006, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guy Barwood

The second hand HD100/200/250 market in a few years will be well down on what it could be due to the models reputations for problems.

I don't get this.
What reputation for problems?
The obvious and over reaching issue regarding this camera is that it has been hailed in virtually every independent comparison that I'm aware of, as the best over all choice of the new HD models.
The SSE "issue" has been shown over and over to be abberant and a virtual non-issue for the vast majority of users.
If this camera has so many problems, how come almost all the discussion here - the primary web HD100 users group, has so few complaints day to day, and so much regualr discussion of it's strengths as a creative tool?

Steven Thomas · April 27th, 2006, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Giberti

the primary web HD100 users group, has so few complaints day to day, and so much regualr discussion of it's strengths as a creative tool?

Agreed!

After waiting through (and checking out) a lot of the sub 10K cameras over the last year, I decided on the HD100.

If it was not capable of producing awesome footage, I would of sold it as quickly as possible.

I'm blown away on the footage this camera is capable of.
I'm really impressed what JVC is doing for this market.
The upcoming HD200 and HD250 will be hot cameras.
I'm thinking about the HD200, although the HD250 would be good to capture
4:2:2 via SDI.

April 26th, 2006, 11:44 AM	#1
Tom Workman Tourist Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: CALGARY, Alberta Posts: 2	hd100 a mature product. This is my first post, but I have been following the unfolding story that has accompanied the hd100. From the split screen to good reviews, the mass recall and refurbishing. Objectively to me it seems peculiar that jvc would release new editions of the hd100 hybrid so soon. It seemed like yesterday a rep from JVC was on here touting how the HD100 was a mature product and that there was no plans to upgrade, or expand the line. Given, all companies will always release new products on an ongoing basis, but in this particular instance I don't know if I can take the plunge and buy a product from a company who's track record needs improvement when it comes to being upfront and honest with it's users about the technologies shortcomings. Statistically I gauge that owner satisfaction with the HD100 is generally high, but given that I am still reading posts on the existence of the sse, I am going to wait and see if this is a kink that JVC has worked out with the hd200 and hd250 before outfitting my production house with them. There hasn't been any word that it has been corrected, but if anyone hears any differently, please post the news and keep us in the loop.

April 27th, 2006, 10:08 AM	#10
David Parks Major Player Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Houston Posts: 789	Hear Hear. Well said Doug. I haven't had an SSE problem at all. When I ordered my HD 100 back in late January I saw the Canon HDV 1080i, the Z1, and even the HVX 200 I was able to talk to reps, see demos, touch the cameras. Without getting into my opinions about each, because they all have their merits and short falls) I based my decision on what I would get in terms of return on investment. And for the look, the fact that this was not a "pixel shifted" CCD camera (1280x720p square pixel from the get go) and it looked very filmic to me. Bottom line is ROI and after 6 projects (3 in dv24pa and 3 in HDV 30p), the camera has already saved me $3000 in camera rental in 3 months, therefore at this rate the camera will pay for itself in under 6 months. That is unheard of in the professional camera world of of the recent past where it could take 18 to 36 months to have a camera payoff. Oh and also at less than $6k I was able to pay cash. Also cost of recording media, tapes that cost less than $10.00. Compared to P2 cards, well there is no comparison. So there are always work arounds and problems in any production/workflow/camera system. After 20 years and 1000 productions, Murphy's law still applies. The first cameras I encountered in 1985 (Ikegami 730a and Sony M1a where terrible compared to the JVC.(Not even fair comparison). And I made money back then as well. __________________ David Parks: DP/Editor: Jacobs Aerospace at NASA Johnson Space Center https://www.youtube.com/user/JacobsESCG

April 26th, 2006, 01:26 PM	#2
Brian Luce Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 2,290	Carl Hicks from JVC recently gave a definitive statement on the SSE, paraphrasing he said with proper calibration the sse is a non issue. he said if you have sse, send it in.

April 26th, 2006, 02:18 PM	#3
Tom Workman Tourist Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: CALGARY, Alberta Posts: 2	I suppose the big question is whether or not JVC will pre-calibrate the cameras before they hit the streets, or will owners be required to send the units far and away to be calibrated properly. I'd like to hear from JVC on this.

April 27th, 2006, 05:52 AM	#6
Guy Barwood Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 423	I'd have to agree that redesigning to add 60p rather than redesigning to address ALL SSF was a completely understandable decision. I do know that there are many other people like me however (event videographers), that even if we had the money (and many do, unlike me this year), won't buy these cameras because of SSF, even if JVC consider it a non issue. Unfortunately for JVC, it is what we believe that determines what we spend our money on not what JVC believe. If they now start the process of the design of their next generation camera (or at least once the HD200/250 are complete) I'm sure one thing they will ensure is that there is absolutely no stigma of SSF associated with the new camera. I'll be a stunned mullet if this problem extends into the next generation model, and promptly buy a Sony or Panasonic. This is definitely one case where it doesn't matter any more if the problem is prominent or even only rare. The damage has been done to the reputation and that cat just won't be getting back into its bag, so while there may be 12,000 sold, maybe there would be 24,000 sold if the SSF had never existed.

April 27th, 2006, 09:43 AM	#9
Doug Harvey New Boot Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Port Stanley, Canada Posts: 23	When the HD-100 first came out last year I was sitting on the fence reading all the reports, and all the posts that I could find on the HD-100 ,and Sony HD Cameras. I would download as many clips of any type of footage that was available on the net and looked at them on my HDTV through the computer, and I found I just loved the look of what the JVC HD-100 put out. The Sony seemed to have at the time too many clips showing full screen Lens Flares caused by anything bright in the picture, so I dismissed the Sony FX-1 and Z-1 as a choice of camera for me, as I do alot of events where theres not much control over the settings. I looked at some JVC HD-100 footage of cars going by with the lights on and the Lens Flares seemed to be alot less. I was just about to buy the JVC HD-100 when the first reports of the split screen came out, and this kind of problem gave me a scare, and I ended up buying a Panasonic DVX-100A. Being new to video, I based my purchase of the DVX -100A on the opinions of others on these sites. But I found that I always felt I had made the wrong choice for me, when I did buy the Panasonic DVX-100A, rather then the JVC HD-100 because I like the HD look. The DVX-100A does a great job for the money in SD, but I still wanted HD. Several months go by and I still want an HD camera, but now I feel I know more about the product choices, and now the Canon H1 and Pansonic HVX200 are out. This time around I followed a different approach on making a choice of which HD camera to buy. First purchase price of the camera itself and then the cost of storage and editing choices. For me, my choice came back to the JVC HD -100, I like the shoulder mount, the lens choices, the tape backup, and I like what I see on the big screen. I almost changed my mind again when I saw reports of the SSE issue come out again, but I still took the plunge and bought the JVC HD -100. The funny thing is, my new JVC HD - 100 camera works just the way I hoped it would, no issues period. The footage I now get is amazing for me, and anything wrong with the footage is directly related to my inexperience and talent. I bought my camera 3 weeks ago, and the new reports this week from NAB of the new HD-200 and HD-250 ( sure 60P would be nice) makes me wonder on how I might be able to swing getting another camera when they become available. So my only advice to you is, do the research for yourself to find the right camera that suits your needs, all the current lower cost choices of HD cameras have there good and bad points. I think the JVC HD-100 SSE issue has been addressed, and should you be unlucky to get a camera with it, it will get fixed. If you check all the camera Forums you will find that all the current crop of cameras all have problems that do come out, it just seems the problems become and stay too long the main topic, that just seems to make you change your mind alot on which camera to choose. But while your on the fence, I will be out there with my new JVC HD - 100 with a big smile on my face. Have a good day!

April 27th, 2006, 10:31 AM	#11
Guy Barwood Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 423	I think you guys clearly missed the point of my post. Maybe I should just take Kens Freed's approach and claim you couldn't understand it unless I was able to see your eyes.... The point is, for many, the damage is done. Reputation is everything and while it takes one minute to spoil, it takes months or years to regenerate. Thats the flip side to marketing any company like JVC have to live with. The only way to make good is a new model with perfect performance. JVC isn't exactly a leading brand in Australia anyway, they can't avoid such negative press at all if they want a higher market share. The second hand HD100/200/250 market in a few years will be well down on what it could be due to the models reputations for problems. It all a factor when deciding where to invest your money. Resale value is often a consideration. Having said that, if I had to buy a semi-Pro HD camera now it would probably still be a HD101 becuase there is so much else to like about it, but only if I had too buy a HD camera because I know with my luck I will end up being plauged with SSF no questions asked ;-( JVC service in Australia has let me down before and I really don't want to be in a position where I would be so dependant on them. Even before the HD100 was released and we had this perfect camera on paper, most videographer collegues I was raving to about what a great camera it would be closed their discussions with final comments like "but its still a JVC camera". These are guys who have been in the industry for 20+ years. Remember that was not my opinions, but theirs.

April 27th, 2006, 11:49 AM	#12
Doug Harvey New Boot Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Port Stanley, Canada Posts: 23	I'm sorry Guy but I think that you missed my Point! I would say that I'm a more knowledgeable person now, then I was last year when I first started reading the information on these forums. I pointed out that I bought the DVX-100A based mostly on information that I could find out on these forums. I did not buy the JVC HD -100 at the same time based on the problems of SSE that seemed to be the hot discussion topic. These Forums bring ideas, and insight from almost everywhere in the world and that it helps users and new buyers make decisions on what to buy, or how to set up and get the most out of these cameras. I can't speak for your experiences with JVC, but for me the impression I get from JVC in North America is that they are trying to get a great product out to the public as fast as they can. Sure maybe JVC had early production quality issues, but JVC went to alot of time and expense to correct these issues. As for how many people with a HD-100 had SSE well, we will never really know. All I can say is that if you check out every forum, there are issues, problems that seem to come up and stay the hot topic for discussion for ages. Most new people try to gauge the value of products from people who are using the product, which I could not tell the difference between Actual Users and Non Users when I made my first decision. I took a different approach when finally making the plunge to get a HD camera but still choose the JVC HD-100, based more on my actual impressions and observations of the camera. I don't feel I have made the wrong decision this time. I do have an "A" version, I do events, under all kinds of lighting conditions, have used 12db gain on some occasions for over 30 minutes, have started recording many times with no warm up to conserve battery power, still no SSE. I am a happy JVC HD-100 owner.