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Old May 15th, 2006, 11:23 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Chaney
Hi Paolo,
Do you mean Black Stretch "normal"?
Yes. It's the same, meaning that there is no stretch so the black is normal. But you're right, that's the correct term.
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Old May 16th, 2006, 12:02 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enzo Giobbé
Where they differ is: detail (-5), black stretch (stretch1), color gain (-1), and red gain (2) - these are my adjustments based on "after editing" ATSC broadcast ready segs. I also have the skin adjust set to on, and the range set to -2.
Hey Enzo, e tu lavori a Hollywood e Cinecitta' ? ;)

Thank for the compliments about TC. So, you're keeping the detail level quite high, eh? I'm interested in this. I found the level detail too "aggressive" and I'm constantly shifting between MIN and OFF.
If you do broadcast work normally, TC might be reproducing "illegal" levels. Of course you can reduce them in post but you're settings require less manipulation. I'm aiming at making the HD100 as close as possible to film so I didn't check the values against broadcast levels.
I never touched the skin tone circuit as I don't want to have other factors changing the parameters out of my control. I'm glad that you mentioned, it confirms my fears :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enzo Giobbé
No one setting is correct for every shooting situation, but your settings are a excellent starting point, and will hold a solid picture in most situations. Thanks for making them available.
You're very welcome. I'm glad they have been of help.
Sounds like you're gonna have fun in the French riviera. We are all eager to see some clips or frames, if you have the chance.

In bocca al lupo!
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Old May 16th, 2006, 01:32 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paolo Ciccone
So, you're keeping the detail level quite high, eh? I'm interested in this. I found the level detail too "aggressive" and I'm constantly shifting between MIN and OFF.

If you do broadcast work normally, TC might be reproducing "illegal" levels.
When JVC released the HDV GR-HD1, folks complained about its extreme edge enhancement. When they released the JY-HD10, JVC set EE lower. However, folks claimed it was still too much for film. JVC responded that a 30p camcorder wasn't really intended for filmaking (true) and that, for broadcast HDTV, "some EE was necessary." So assuming JVC was correct, it makes sense that for ATSC Enzo would use more detail than you would.

You may be right that his shifting both Color Gain and Red Gain down one notch may guard against exceeding broadcast levels. (Although one would expect JVC would have set default Color Gain correctly.) Alternately, DSC makes some comments, I don't understand, about THEIR 75% color bars being too hot.

If this is the case, there may be two TCs: TC-film and TC-video.

By the way, these two links seem broken:

Main scene
Right side
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Old May 16th, 2006, 01:53 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Mullen
So assuming JVC was correct, it makes sense that for ATSC Enzo would use more detail than you would.
Makes sense, thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Mullen
You may be right that his shifting both Color Gain and Red Gain down one notch may guard against exceeding broadcast levels. (Although one would expect JVC would have set default Color Gain correctly.) Alternately, DSC makes some comments, I don't understand, about THEIR 75% color bars being too hot.
Yeah, I was surprised about the color gain set lower but since I don't have all the other settings in Enzo's config, I'm just guessing.
The DSC colors, if I read their comments correctly, will cause the NTSC VScope to reach 75% of the level. They suggest using gain for positioning the colors in the boxes.

Thanks for link check, I fixed them.
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Old May 20th, 2006, 02:24 PM   #20
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posting of true color v2 in my documentary

http://img150.imageshack.us/my.php?i...vetsb404fb.jpg

http://img249.imageshack.us/my.php?i...liteer01yz.jpg


hi, these are the captures from JVC 101E HDV capture using truecolor v.2.
I set all color at zero. as i prefer the warmer tone.

the lighter image was after adjusted the middle bar at levels
overall brighten up and not losing an highlight details

Jy
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Old May 20th, 2006, 06:21 PM   #21
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Thanks Paolo for your greatly appreciated work

Does you TC3 also increase latitude? We're using the HD101's live at the moment, and did a large fund raising concert on Friday night, but we found on standard settings, we had to run the cameras upto 12db gain. Just wondered if you settings would save using so much gain. Thanks
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Old May 20th, 2006, 07:04 PM   #22
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Hi John.

Hard to rate the colors on that kind of image since there are very few colors, they are generally desaturated and you are shooting against light.
Myself I would go for a darker image but I'm glad it works for you.
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Old May 20th, 2006, 07:08 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Letch
Does you TC3 also increase latitude? We're using the HD101's live at the moment, and did a large fund raising concert on Friday night, but we found on standard settings, we had to run the cameras upto 12db gain. Just wondered if you settings would save using so much gain. Thanks
Hi Adam.

V3 doesn't change the latitude of the settings. It gives a better balance and contrast but it's a small variation compared to V2.
Depending on the type of concert you can use black stretch at 3, longer shutter speed (1/30 if shooting 30fps or 1/24 if 24fps, for example) and gain, and a combination of all 3 :)
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Old May 21st, 2006, 05:54 AM   #24
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darker i also prefer

Paolo,
I agree too, darker seems better in color saturation.
but i just show what can be done in shadow and dark detail
note that the man 's ear shown in shadow.

I m not think in video so i only think in film ( not film look!)
i have not to test a 35mm blow up but i think ur TC has a very sound and linear exposure latitude for blow up.
as this is always confusing to many people that they mis-used film look or cine like gamma.

i test with sony and found cine gamma is just a 3 stop cut.

in plain exposure term -- how many stops ur TC v3 can preserved?

i still prefer to use a spot meter with ASA/ISO setting for good zone system exposure allocation ( pardon my english)

have u test that the JVC has a constant ASA/ ISO?

color wise i rather do it in post, i actually prefer t o do it as im age sequence or use cineform for output

JY
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Old May 21st, 2006, 11:17 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Yamamoto
Paolo,
I agree too, darker seems better in color saturation.
but i just show what can be done in shadow and dark detail
note that the man 's ear shown in shadow.
I see now what you mean, thanks.

Quote:
in plain exposure term -- how many stops ur TC v3 can preserved?
In terms of going from real bright to very dark, I measured the camera di be able of ~6 f-stops with TC. I measured this with the grayscale of the DSC chart, stopping when the last 2-3 blacks where barely visible. This means that, in real life situations you would be barely able to see the subject but, on the other hand, you are still able to recognize details. This procedure was suggested to me by Scott Billups.

Quote:
have u test that the JVC has a constant ASA/ ISO?
I haven't done that test but, if I remember well, Tim D and others reported a variable ASA value depending on the gamma settings. Adam Wilt rates the camera at "little less than 320" in his review on DV Magazine.
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Old May 22nd, 2006, 07:28 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Mullen
You may be right that his shifting both Color Gain and Red Gain down one notch may guard against exceeding broadcast levels.
I wanted to follow-up on this topic.

Have you -- or could you -- post a vectorscope of your V3 settings and a vectorscope with the Color Gain set to -1 rather than NORMAL and Red set to +2 rather than +3.

If it turns out your V3 is too hot for Broadcast video, then you may want to post two versions: TC-film and TC-video.

Lastly, could you find the time to post one second of .m2t V3 (film) and perhaps V3 (video).
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Old May 22nd, 2006, 07:45 PM   #27
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Hi Steve.

I'll shoot a clip of the DSC chart with TC V3 and I'll get a frame grab of the VScoper + histogram. I'll also post some outdoor footage probably tomorrow.

Cheers
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Old May 22nd, 2006, 09:16 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Mullen
If it turns out your V3 is too hot for Broadcast video, then you may want to post two versions: TC-film and TC-video.
Steve, I just remember that I have posted several VScope images for V1, and V3 can't be "hotter" than V1. V1 looks perfectly in the safe area, regarding saturation levels. V3, having a lower gain in the blue, not the red, is even more in the safe area for video.
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Old May 22nd, 2006, 09:28 PM   #29
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Looks like we have to wait for Enzo to return and explain why he slightly reduced color and slightly increased red. I wonder if that was his taste in color -- or if there was a technical reason.

For example, we know we can have very saturated red using HD. But what happens when we broadcast an NTSC or PAL version of an HD production?

How about when we make an NTSC or PAL DVD?

Does the conversion from HD to SD colorspace automatically reduce chroma saturation IF it is necessary to reduce it?
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Old May 25th, 2006, 01:33 AM   #30
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Fasinating stuff guys!

Paolo and Steve - great work on this thread. Very educational.

Thanks again Paolo for all the hard work you've put in - and we'll for sure mention you in our credits. Keep up the good work guys!

john
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