New Film in Pre-Production, shooting with HD100 at DVinfo.net

Giuseppe Pugliese · May 28th, 2006, 11:20 PM

I have been working on a film for the past 5 months called "Roundabout". Its taking a long time to put together, but its worth it.

The film will hopefully shoot next year, With a project this large you tend to run into lots of bumps in the road. We wanted the dvinfo community to have a look inside of what we are doing.

We will be shooting the next 2 films we come out with, with the JVC HD100. they are both feature length films.

we have a page up that has updated blogs about the on going production process.

The link is... www.myspace.com/roundaboutmovie

There will be lots of technical information, as well as some stories of things gone wrong or right with the production.

If you guys have any questions please feel free to ask, I will be updating this thread as the process goes along.

So please check out the link, and check out our blogs. Tell us what you think!

Brian Luce · May 29th, 2006, 12:38 AM

I'd suggest extensive testing of the jvc's before you start photography. My experience with the hd100 and the dv500, both of which I own, has not been the best in terms of quality control--what you get out of the box.. .

You don't want all your crew there on the first day only to find out your JVC wants the day off.

Giuseppe Pugliese · May 29th, 2006, 02:58 AM

Oh yes believe me I know, you are absolutely right, we are going to be doing TONS of tests before we shoot... I will be posting these tests on here when they are done. There are some tricky things we need to figure out lighting wise, so it will be an interesting ride.

I hope that from my posts I can help others with their films, and keep the learning process going.

Tim Holtermann · May 29th, 2006, 01:28 PM

I'm not sure what you want your myspace page to show, but already as an investor I would be concerned. You were ready to dump the HD100A and use the Sony yet you haven't even tested the Sony, then for money reasons you decided not to. If Investors will not see that page then perhaps it's no big deal but just something to think about.

The Varicam has been used for 35mm blow up with great results and it's only 720p. (Collateral for example), I wouldn't worry about the 1080. The res on this chip is more than enough. The uprez to 1080 for film out with an Arri "outputer" will do a better job than some pixel shifting of low res chips like some of the 1080 cameras have.

Creating a film using any camera is a tough road and I wish you the best of luck, I'll definately look forward to reading what you find along the way and it will serve to help all HD100 film makers.

Giuseppe Pugliese · May 29th, 2006, 04:11 PM

At the time, we were worried about blowing up to film. The problem is that we want to do a 2.35:1 Crop. This made us concerned about cutting out our vertical resolution.

The sony at the time, seemed like a nice alternative because later down the road it would pay for itself. But we soon realized that it would be a problem to throw out all the planning we had for the hd100 and start fresh with a new camera... It would have been hard to convince an investor to put in extra money, when we had confidence in the hd100.

So yes you are right about an investor not being so happy about that, thats why we went BACK to the HD100.

Actually I have an interesting question that I haven’t been able to test yet...

would taking our 720p footage and up-resing it to 1080p before blow up to film, help at all? Or would it just be an extra step not worth doing? I'm curious to see if it helps or hurts in any way.

P.S.
(Soon another page will be up for our second movie that we will be filming with the HD100 as well, that film will be shooting around dec-nov. I will post the link to all its information as soon as the sites done.)

Stephan Ahonen · May 29th, 2006, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giuseppe Pugliese

would taking our 720p footage and up-resing it to 1080p before blow up to film, help at all?

Why would it help at all? You can't magically get extra pixels that weren't there in the first place.

Giuseppe Pugliese · May 29th, 2006, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Holtermann

The Varicam has been used for 35mm blow up with great results and it's only 720p. (Collateral for example), I wouldn't worry about the 1080.

According to IMDB Collateral was shot with a sony F900, and Thomson Viper Film Stream camera not a Varicam.

I have read that they wanted to shoot with the viper because they wanted to shoot at 1080p with an aspect ratio of 2.37:1 WITHOUT cropping or loss of resolution.

This is why I brought up the sony, only because when blowing up to film, every little bit counts, especially on a smaller budget like us. We wont have the money to afford the expensive extra steps that the studios can afford to making a perfect film print from our digital source. We need every advantage we can get without going over budget. That said, using a camera that uses pixel shifting and what-not can also cause its own problems as well.

All in all, I have yet to see for my own eyes a 720p blowup to film and projected, I have seen what it looks like online, but not in a room with a real film projector. So thats my only reason for concern, as you can see I have pretty much made up my mind with using the HD100 anyway.

I think the camera can handle what we need to do, and I personally like the image that the JVC can produce on its small budget price (the poor mans varicam!)

(Other info)
Our other feature film that is in the works, is actually going to shoot sooner than “Roundabout” . We will be shooting in lots of low light conditions (in a car, and woods at night). We were originally concerned with the SSE problem when shooting in low light conditions, that was another reason why we had worried about the JVC’s ability to shoot the film. But after the new A version, the SSE problem seems to be a thing of the past. We would never thing of pushing the gain on the camera, we have access to a large Arri lighting kit, so there’s no need to think about low light problems anymore.

If there is anyone out there interested in working with us (and lives in the New York area, please feel free to contact us at RoundaboutTheMovie@yahoo.com . We will be open to all suggestions on how to help these films be as great as they can.

I think it will also be a great opportunity for someone to see the HD100 at work on a feature film shoot with big lighting setups and see all the technical issues that goes along with it. So come be a fly on our wall and check out what we do!

Joel Aaron · May 29th, 2006, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephan Ahonen

Why would it help at all? You can't magically get extra pixels that weren't there in the first place.

These guys think they can apply some digital magic to create new pixels where there were none before. I've read reviews of people uprezzing SD with good quality results. Starting at 720P should be an easier route because so much more information is available. It's a slow process though.

http://www.algolith.com/index.php?id=algosuite

Here's one review:
http://preview.videosystems.com/mag/...ith_algosuite/

This guy used it on his DVX-100 footage before a filmout.
http://aftereffects.digitalmedianet....e.jsp?id=38239

Stephan Ahonen · May 29th, 2006, 09:32 PM

I love how all the screencaps in the review are the size of postage stamps so you see absolutely no difference between the Algolith and the AE uprezzes. Good job guys. =D

Anyway, I have heard of this product, or at least something like it, and it is very impressive, but it's not magically creating detail where there was none. It's just enhancing edges in a pleasing and transparent way to create the illusion of detail. This is no mean feat, and I don't mean to belittle it since it does produce impressive results and I've not actually used it, but if you want the detail of a 1080 picture, originate in 1080.

For the original poster's problem, if you have access to a product like this, use it to scale all the way up to the final film output resolution that the post house is using, don't just stop at 1080. Chances are the post house is already using something like this for video to film transfers anyway, so you may not even have to do that.

Joel Aaron · May 29th, 2006, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephan Ahonen

Chances are the post house is already using something like this for video to film transfers anyway, so you may not even have to do that.

Good point. The best people to ask this question to are at the places that do film outs to see what process they have had the best results with.

Giuseppe Pugliese · May 29th, 2006, 11:42 PM

All very good points, yeah I’ve heard about Algolith too…it looks like a program that might be worth its money if you use it right…. So I guess the people that will actually be doing the blow up will know what’s best for the process they are going to use.

Thanks for the input though, it seems like it might be a thing I only have to worry about later down the road. The advantage of shooting in 720p is that it seems to be the “middle of the road” resolution. It looks amazing when shown on an SD TV as well as an HD TV, but has potential to be blown up to film and keep its wow factor if done right.. At least that’s what I gather now. So I guess the testing will just have to be done…

I will call one of the places where I would get the blow up done, and ask them what they think about upresing the footage myself, and ill post what they told me.

Bob Fierce · May 31st, 2006, 09:53 AM

Wouldn't the HD200 be more appropriate? It seems to be designed with film makers in mind.

Giuseppe Pugliese · May 31st, 2006, 01:55 PM

Well the reason why we are not using the hd200 is because we have already started some tests with the hd100, and have more access to an hd100 then the new one that’s not out yet.

about the upres issue, I just got off the phone with Gilbert from a company called Filmout Express. We talked for about an hour on upresing and other important things with a film blow up.

Gilbert is checking out the Algorith site, because he is quite interested in seeing if its any better than the upres process he uses already. Me and him are both looking into the company to see if it will work better than just interpolating and smoothing edges.

There’s also some other information i would like to talk about as well... We are shooting with the HD100 at 16:9 BUT we are going to put a 2.35:1 mask over the 16:9 image. Ive done it before and in my own opinion looks great. I've always loved the look of a wider crop, 2.35:1 just screams to be as better looking. Gilbert from Filmout Express had talked about them wanting 2 masters, one with and without the 2.35 crop. They are interested in seeing if the crop they apply on the film would be better than the already burned in crop i would have put on the master.

He said that a 720p blowup to film actually looks more like 16mm (even though its more at an 8mm res.) He said that the resolution that really shows up amazingly is the 1080p cinealta footage, as we all know thats not a shocker. But what was a shock was that he said the 720p, as long as it wasn’t mixed with any higher resolution footage, would look great blown up to film, with lots of clarity.

That statement really hits home because i was worried about that from the start. And I’m glad that I’ve spoken with someone who does this day in and day out. having it compared to the 1080p footage was impressive, he said that as long as the 720p wasn’t side by side with film, you cant really tell that it wasn’t shot on film.

Tim Holtermann · June 1st, 2006, 11:15 AM

The HD100 720p footage I've seen projected on 35mm has been very impressive. Definately capable of delivering a film experience to customers.

If you are shooting something edgy you can definately use it to your advantage to give your material a "look". If you watched Devils Rejects in the theater you saw Arri S-16mm blown up to 35mm. It worked well for the films presence.

Don't let specs shadder your dreams or your visuals. Sometimes less can work to your creative advantage.

John Clark · June 1st, 2006, 12:28 PM

There is a hd100 filmout floating around here somewhere which is amazing. If you haven't seen it, look for it. Anyone doing an art project with the first name Guiseppi has a vote of confidence from me. Good luck and sign me up

May 28th, 2006, 11:20 PM	#1
Giuseppe Pugliese Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: New York Posts: 392	New Film in Pre-Production, shooting with HD100 I have been working on a film for the past 5 months called "Roundabout". Its taking a long time to put together, but its worth it. The film will hopefully shoot next year, With a project this large you tend to run into lots of bumps in the road. We wanted the dvinfo community to have a look inside of what we are doing. We will be shooting the next 2 films we come out with, with the JVC HD100. they are both feature length films. we have a page up that has updated blogs about the on going production process. The link is... www.myspace.com/roundaboutmovie There will be lots of technical information, as well as some stories of things gone wrong or right with the production. If you guys have any questions please feel free to ask, I will be updating this thread as the process goes along. So please check out the link, and check out our blogs. Tell us what you think!

May 31st, 2006, 01:55 PM	#13
Giuseppe Pugliese Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: New York Posts: 392	update on upres.... Well the reason why we are not using the hd200 is because we have already started some tests with the hd100, and have more access to an hd100 then the new one that’s not out yet. about the upres issue, I just got off the phone with Gilbert from a company called Filmout Express. We talked for about an hour on upresing and other important things with a film blow up. Gilbert is checking out the Algorith site, because he is quite interested in seeing if its any better than the upres process he uses already. Me and him are both looking into the company to see if it will work better than just interpolating and smoothing edges. There’s also some other information i would like to talk about as well... We are shooting with the HD100 at 16:9 BUT we are going to put a 2.35:1 mask over the 16:9 image. Ive done it before and in my own opinion looks great. I've always loved the look of a wider crop, 2.35:1 just screams to be as better looking. Gilbert from Filmout Express had talked about them wanting 2 masters, one with and without the 2.35 crop. They are interested in seeing if the crop they apply on the film would be better than the already burned in crop i would have put on the master. He said that a 720p blowup to film actually looks more like 16mm (even though its more at an 8mm res.) He said that the resolution that really shows up amazingly is the 1080p cinealta footage, as we all know thats not a shocker. But what was a shock was that he said the 720p, as long as it wasn’t mixed with any higher resolution footage, would look great blown up to film, with lots of clarity. That statement really hits home because i was worried about that from the start. And I’m glad that I’ve spoken with someone who does this day in and day out. having it compared to the 1080p footage was impressive, he said that as long as the 720p wasn’t side by side with film, you cant really tell that it wasn’t shot on film.

June 1st, 2006, 12:28 PM	#15
John Clark New Boot Join Date: May 2006 Location: shelter island, ny Posts: 11	filmout There is a hd100 filmout floating around here somewhere which is amazing. If you haven't seen it, look for it. Anyone doing an art project with the first name Guiseppi has a vote of confidence from me. Good luck and sign me up

May 29th, 2006, 12:38 AM	#2
Brian Luce Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 2,290	I'd suggest extensive testing of the jvc's before you start photography. My experience with the hd100 and the dv500, both of which I own, has not been the best in terms of quality control--what you get out of the box.. . You don't want all your crew there on the first day only to find out your JVC wants the day off.

May 29th, 2006, 02:58 AM	#3
Giuseppe Pugliese Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: New York Posts: 392	Oh yes believe me I know, you are absolutely right, we are going to be doing TONS of tests before we shoot... I will be posting these tests on here when they are done. There are some tricky things we need to figure out lighting wise, so it will be an interesting ride. I hope that from my posts I can help others with their films, and keep the learning process going.

May 29th, 2006, 01:28 PM	#4
Tim Holtermann Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 184	I'm not sure what you want your myspace page to show, but already as an investor I would be concerned. You were ready to dump the HD100A and use the Sony yet you haven't even tested the Sony, then for money reasons you decided not to. If Investors will not see that page then perhaps it's no big deal but just something to think about. The Varicam has been used for 35mm blow up with great results and it's only 720p. (Collateral for example), I wouldn't worry about the 1080. The res on this chip is more than enough. The uprez to 1080 for film out with an Arri "outputer" will do a better job than some pixel shifting of low res chips like some of the 1080 cameras have. Creating a film using any camera is a tough road and I wish you the best of luck, I'll definately look forward to reading what you find along the way and it will serve to help all HD100 film makers.

May 29th, 2006, 04:11 PM	#5
Giuseppe Pugliese Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: New York Posts: 392	At the time, we were worried about blowing up to film. The problem is that we want to do a 2.35:1 Crop. This made us concerned about cutting out our vertical resolution. The sony at the time, seemed like a nice alternative because later down the road it would pay for itself. But we soon realized that it would be a problem to throw out all the planning we had for the hd100 and start fresh with a new camera... It would have been hard to convince an investor to put in extra money, when we had confidence in the hd100. So yes you are right about an investor not being so happy about that, thats why we went BACK to the HD100. Actually I have an interesting question that I haven’t been able to test yet... would taking our 720p footage and up-resing it to 1080p before blow up to film, help at all? Or would it just be an extra step not worth doing? I'm curious to see if it helps or hurts in any way. P.S. (Soon another page will be up for our second movie that we will be filming with the HD100 as well, that film will be shooting around dec-nov. I will post the link to all its information as soon as the sites done.)

May 29th, 2006, 09:32 PM	#9
Stephan Ahonen Major Player Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 512	I love how all the screencaps in the review are the size of postage stamps so you see absolutely no difference between the Algolith and the AE uprezzes. Good job guys. =D Anyway, I have heard of this product, or at least something like it, and it is very impressive, but it's not magically creating detail where there was none. It's just enhancing edges in a pleasing and transparent way to create the illusion of detail. This is no mean feat, and I don't mean to belittle it since it does produce impressive results and I've not actually used it, but if you want the detail of a 1080 picture, originate in 1080. For the original poster's problem, if you have access to a product like this, use it to scale all the way up to the final film output resolution that the post house is using, don't just stop at 1080. Chances are the post house is already using something like this for video to film transfers anyway, so you may not even have to do that.

May 29th, 2006, 11:42 PM	#11
Giuseppe Pugliese Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: New York Posts: 392	All very good points, yeah I’ve heard about Algolith too…it looks like a program that might be worth its money if you use it right…. So I guess the people that will actually be doing the blow up will know what’s best for the process they are going to use. Thanks for the input though, it seems like it might be a thing I only have to worry about later down the road. The advantage of shooting in 720p is that it seems to be the “middle of the road” resolution. It looks amazing when shown on an SD TV as well as an HD TV, but has potential to be blown up to film and keep its wow factor if done right.. At least that’s what I gather now. So I guess the testing will just have to be done… I will call one of the places where I would get the blow up done, and ask them what they think about upresing the footage myself, and ill post what they told me.

May 31st, 2006, 09:53 AM	#12
Bob Fierce New Boot Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 19	Wouldn't the HD200 be more appropriate? It seems to be designed with film makers in mind.

June 1st, 2006, 11:15 AM	#14
Tim Holtermann Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 184	The HD100 720p footage I've seen projected on 35mm has been very impressive. Definately capable of delivering a film experience to customers. If you are shooting something edgy you can definately use it to your advantage to give your material a "look". If you watched Devils Rejects in the theater you saw Arri S-16mm blown up to 35mm. It worked well for the films presence. Don't let specs shadder your dreams or your visuals. Sometimes less can work to your creative advantage.