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Old July 6th, 2006, 05:18 PM   #1
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30p vs. 24p

I realize this has been discussed before, but any definitive answers on 30p vs. 24p when content is intended solely for DVD distribution? Setting aside the possibility of 24p dvd players, etc., what is the real world solution? Is it really that much of a difference in "look"? Thanks to all.
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Old July 6th, 2006, 05:31 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayes Roberts
I realize this has been discussed before, but any definitive answers on 30p vs. 24p when content is intended solely for DVD distribution? Setting aside the possibility of 24p dvd players, etc., what is the real world solution? Is it really that much of a difference in "look"? Thanks to all.
The ease in workflow of 30p outweighs everything when the sole distribution is DVD.
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Old July 6th, 2006, 05:43 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Stephen L. Noe
The ease in workflow of 30p outweighs everything when the sole distribution is DVD.
How about when both NTSC and PAL DVDs are needed, and the video is shot in NTSC?
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Old July 6th, 2006, 06:03 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Jack Walker
How about when both NTSC and PAL DVDs are needed, and the video is shot in NTSC?
In that case then 24p is best, but if the DVD is purely NTSC then 30p.
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Old July 6th, 2006, 06:11 PM   #5
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It is a purely aesthetic choice, but if PAL DVDs are definitely needed, you should consider shooting 25P and then downconverting to PAL and NTSC. It would be the easiest conversion in both cases.
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Old July 6th, 2006, 06:37 PM   #6
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25->30 is an awkward ratio to convert, it doesn't pull down as well as 24->30. I would actually say shoot in 24 and temporally stretch to 25 for PAL, since the people in PAL world are pretty used to it.
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Old July 6th, 2006, 08:14 PM   #7
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Hayes, I don't see anyone asking what system you are using... PC or Mac?

If PC and Premiere Pro then 24P has more to offer (nicer look, smaller file sizes / less frames, better low light, reduced render times, etc.)

If Mac and FCP then 30P might be better for now.

This is assuming NTSC, as mentioned


Or are you using a different editor?
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Old July 6th, 2006, 09:43 PM   #8
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From what I have gathered (especially from Steve Mullen), unless you are outputting to Film (True 24 Frames), then 30P has more potential to "look like film" than 24P because of the flicker that 30P has. Each Frame Flashes twice a second (60) like film does (48). With 24P to any Video source, it plays back with a 3:2 Pulldown which is not accurate. He has posted threads at great length about this. It is very interesting.

If either workflow doesn't bother you, then I suggesting testing them out. The thing with 24P is that pans are much harder to pull off, as is motion altogether unless you have practiced.

Good luck.
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Old July 6th, 2006, 10:28 PM   #9
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I am using FCP- Very interesting and helpful; has anyone actually seen comparisons or tested this? Additionally, any word on when Apple is really going to deliver? Thanks again.
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Old July 6th, 2006, 11:09 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Benner
From what I have gathered (especially from Steve Mullen), unless you are outputting to Film (True 24 Frames), then 30P has more potential to "look like film" than 24P because of the flicker that 30P has. Each Frame Flashes twice a second (60) like film does (48). With 24P to any Video source, it plays back with a 3:2 Pulldown which is not accurate. He has posted threads at great length about this. It is very interesting.

If either workflow doesn't bother you, then I suggesting testing them out. The thing with 24P is that pans are much harder to pull off, as is motion altogether unless you have practiced.

Good luck.
Exactly and I have always agreed with Steve on this matter I believe 30p can in fact look very much like film and to tell you the truth I actually prefur 30p to 24p for everything I shoot. If I was going to shoot something that was going to be bumped to film which is not likely, that would be the only time I would use 24p
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Old July 10th, 2006, 04:13 AM   #11
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I still have a few questions regarding 30p:

How does 30p look when played back in a PAL player that converts NTSC? Most PAL players play back NTSC fine, but I am worried that 30p NTSC might stutter in a PAL NTSC converting player.


Should I flag the 30p as 30p with a 2-2 pulldown or just as 60i? I have noticed that at least half of the NTSC DVD players seem to be confused by a 30p 2-2 pulldown flag and try to do a 3-2 pulldown when they see it. This looks terrible. On the other hand, if I flag it as 60i, uprezzing algorythms might not work correctly. I know that my DVD authoring application: DVD Architect won`t even let me write a 2-2 pulldown DVD because of the potential playback problems.

The show "Friends" is shot in 30p. Does anyone know how that show is flagged when it is released on DVD?
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Old July 10th, 2006, 04:30 AM   #12
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I just did a google search and found that "Friends" is shot on film at 30p and released on DVD as 30p video that is flagged as 60i.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...e-10-2000.html

"Several TV shows, including Friends, are shot on 30 fps cameras and transferred to video using 2-2 pulldown. Unfortunately, the Friends DVDs are not marked progressive, which just reinforces our point Ė you canít trust the flags."
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Old July 10th, 2006, 07:57 AM   #13
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30P or 60i - the players don't care. You can flag it progressive so that some players and TVs will click into P mode, but it really won't make a difference with 30P since the video file is still 60i.
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Old July 10th, 2006, 09:26 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen L. Noe
The ease in workflow of 30p outweighs everything when the sole distribution is DVD.
That depends on what NLE you're using. Using Vegas, for example, the workflow between the two is identical. And a 24p DVD is true progressive, whereas 30p must be encoded as 60i.

Liquid, of course, is not 24p-friendly. But other NLEs are.

So, if you can edit on a 24p timeline and make a 24p DVD, it makes no sense not to do it, ESPECIALLY, if the aesthetics of 24p are what you're after, and are looking at 30p merely as a "compromise." Despite what Steve Mullen says, I've never seen any 30p looking more like film than 24p.
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Old July 10th, 2006, 09:35 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Steve Benner
With 24P to any Video source, it plays back with a 3:2 Pulldown which is not accurate.
That is not true. A computer screen or a progressive display (like an HDTV) will display the true 24p frames, no pulldown.

As for standard TVs, 2:3 (or 3:2) pulldown isn't perfect, but it averages out to the right thing -- and every Hollywood movie you've ever watched on a standard TV has used it. I'd dare say they still look like fine, no?

Quote:
The thing with 24P is that pans are much harder to pull off, as is motion altogether unless you have practiced.
It's harder, but that's part of the film look. Many of the camera movements that we've come to consider "cinematic" come as a direct result of decades of DPs learning how to work with the motion cadence of 24 fps in order to get the best out of it.

30p still has a video-ish feel to it. That doesn't make it bad, nor is 24p the appropriate frame rate for every use. But if the look of cinematic film is what you're after, shooting good 24p is what you want.
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