DR-HD100 Final Cut 720/30P Update Released/QT HDV now supported by FOCUS HD100 at DVinfo.net

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Old August 22nd, 2006, 03:43 PM   #1
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DR-HD100 Final Cut 720/30P Update Released/QT HDV now supported by FOCUS HD100

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=74084
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Old August 23rd, 2006, 12:25 AM   #2
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QT HDV now supported by FOCUS HD100

Brief post to say I talked with the Focus Product Manager this afternoon. He said the long awaited HDV DTE firmware was -- as of today -- shipping.

You can add a QT wrapper to 720p30 so DTE is supported using FCP.

Since there is no 720p24 support in FCP or a 720p60 camcorder at this point -- they cannot (or are not) claiming this firmware will support either format. (They may also be unable to comment until Apple makes their move.)

He was unclear if one can select 720p24 and enable QT wrapper -- and I forgot to ask if 720p25 was supported. I expect I'll have the CD-ROM in a few days.

They are now looking at MSX support, but given the proportion of HDV shooters who use FCP verses Xpress Pro -- I got the feeling it might not be worth it to Focus. Also, Avid supports "faster than RT" import to MFX from the drive so it might not even be needed.

Liquid supports DTE using M2T so it already works at 24p, 25p, 30p, 50p, and 60p. I've lost track of Premiere Pro 2.0 and Vegas so I can't comment.

In any case, the ball is now very firmly in Apple's court.
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Old August 23rd, 2006, 12:53 AM   #3
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Click here for the direct link to the Firmware updater for JVC DTE (Focus).

Steve Brenner has been on top of this developement as well and provided the link. I am surprised they'd be charging for it though.

S.Noe
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Old August 23rd, 2006, 10:53 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Mullen
They are now looking at MSX support, but given the proportion of HDV shooters who use FCP verses Xpress Pro -- I got the feeling it might not be worth it to Focus. Also, Avid supports "faster than RT" import to MFX from the drive so it might not even be needed.

Liquid supports DTE using M2T so it already works at 24p, 25p, 30p, 50p, and 60p. I've lost track of Premiere Pro 2.0 and Vegas so I can't comment.

In any case, the ball is now very firmly in Apple's court.
I prefer to edit Avid, but it is really up to them to add support for JVC's HDV 24P. Currently I am converting the .m2t's to Avid DNxHD 720P 60Bit...the upressing to 4:2:2 looks incredible.

The wrapper though also has to remove the repeat flags regarding the DTE to FCP since it is 30 FPS, not 60....if they just change the pulldown, I bet it will work.
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Old August 23rd, 2006, 04:30 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Benner
I prefer to edit Avid, but it is really up to them to add support for JVC's HDV 24P. Currently I am converting the .m2t's to Avid DNxHD 720P 60Bit...the upressing to 4:2:2 looks incredible.
Steve: What are you using for converting the .m2t's to DNxHD and upressing to 4:2:2? Also, are you converting 24p to 25/30?
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Old August 23rd, 2006, 07:43 PM   #6
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First, no I am not changing the frame rate, it is still 24P.

Second, I use MPEG STREAMCLIP....do a google search and download it for free. Here was a post I made regarding the workflow:

Here is the best workaround currently (and free):

- Download DVHSCap and MPEG STREAMCLIP.
- Use DVHSCap (or a firestore) and capture the .m2t file.
- Open the file in MPEG STREAMCLIP.
- Select Avid Codec DNxHD.
- Bring the Quality Slider to Best.
- Deselest the De-interlace check boxes.
- In the Frame Rate Box, enter 23.976.
- Next to DNxHD, you need to go into the options and select which quality and frame size you want to edit in (Either 1080 or 720, and one of the qualities).

In Avid, create whatever project type is correct with your frame size. Avid will quickly import the files, but it will also Copy them and transcode to MXF...it does this quickly because of the DNxHD. You can delete the original files after importing.

This seems like a long workaround but it is rather quick. The only time consuming thing is the conversion. You can also Batch Convert in MPEG STREAMCLIP.
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Old August 26th, 2006, 08:05 PM   #7
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I just got the FOCUS CD UPGRADE in the mail today...the 720/30P works without any problems....

On a side note, I tried to capture with 24P, but alas, the file will not open in Quicktime or MPEG STREAMCLIP.
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Old August 28th, 2006, 04:00 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Steve Benner
I just got the FOCUS CD UPGRADE in the mail today...the 720/30P works without any problems....

On a side note, I tried to capture with 24P, but alas, the file will not open in Quicktime or MPEG STREAMCLIP.
Am I correct that it let you specify YES I WANT QT and YES I WANT 24p at the same time?

It sounds like it recorded as though all was well. Correct?

Does the 30p QT file contain M2V and MP2 or M2V and AIFF?

If you use MPEG STREAMCLIP to create a file LIKE THAT you want the Focus to create and/or you think the Focus does create with 24p -- will MPEG STREAMCLIP open it? (Let's be fair, it could be STREAMCLIP.)

The Focus PM was very evasive about 24p support on the grounds that QT and FCP didn't support it. I forgot to ask: does the firmware attempt to process 24p?

And, did the coders write a general solution, 25p, 30p, 50p, 60p or only write 30p code. I don't buy the NO COMMENT on anything but 30p. The real question is did the software guys write a complete solution? The issue of no FCP 24p or 60p camcorders yet is bogus. Testing and fixing one expects to be delayed.

Obviously, if they did write a general solution, Focus is much closer to be ready for the future than if they hacked together 30p and have yet to do the whole job.

In fact, one has to wonder if the microprocessor has the power to handle 50p/60p or the code for 24p. (Or the ROM space to handle the different code.) Buyers should know if they are buying a dead-end product.

I'm not beating-up Focus. It's precisely because the task of demuxing TS is so difficult that I worry about any differences in frame-rate or actions. (I used to write realtime code that had to fit in very tiny spaces, so I'm not worrying needlessly.)

And, is anyone but me bothered by the fact the "special"fuctions work only for DV? In fact, even claiming the unit did DTE was bogus since given it was made for the HD100, Focus had to know it was going to be used mostly for HDV. Until this week, DTE wasn't possible with HDV.

Which raises the question -- can you use QT with 720p25?

Which also raises the question -- can you use QT with 480p50 and 480p60?


Apple's in the mess they are because despite the fact MPEG-2 specs have been fully defined for a decade (and used in EVERY hardware device), Apple hacked a 30p solution, not a general MPEG-2 solution. It's a pleasure to work with Liquid because say what you want about it, the FAST folks understand MPEG-2.

Lastly, let's assume that the 30p code is processing the 24p data. What would we expect to find in the file?

What might the QT frame-rate be set to?

What might be done with the Repeat Flags?

What might happen to the audio?

It looks like something was written into the file. A QT guy or girl might be able to find a way to use the file.
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Old August 28th, 2006, 04:22 PM   #9
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It's a pleasure to work with Liquid because say what you want about it, the FAST folks understand MPEG-2.
Steve,

On a side note, does Edius 4 work as well as Liquid?

I have Liquid, PPro2 and can use Edius 4. We are going to do a 7 minute dramatic short -- 24p -- to test the camera and some other gear? It may end up being transferred to film. Which program would you suggest to jump into first for the editing?

Also, if I remember correctly, you would going to do a full review on the different editors. Is it by chance availble somewhere?
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Old August 28th, 2006, 06:57 PM   #10
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Steve,
Also, if I remember correctly, you would going to do a full review on the different editors. Is it by chance availble somewhere?
I expect EDIUS to "work" better than Liquid. But, it does not offer either built-in 5.1 audio or a DVD creator. It also is a screen hog compared to Liquid.

I'll start my EDIUS work in October. I would have no hestitation going with EDIUS 4. Although, I've found a few tiny bugs.
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Old August 30th, 2006, 05:55 AM   #11
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To Steve Mullen

From Matt McEwen (Focus Rep on the boards):

"To my knowledge, Final Cut does not support native HDV 720p/24 yet. If and when Apple adds 720p/24 support natively we will most likely support it."

They will likely add a "Quicktime 24P" option like they do in SD is my guess...the same for the 60P mode....currently it seems that when Quicktime is selected under HD mode, it also removes the pulldown....if it didn't, the result would be a 60 FPS clip, not 30.

And no it will not let you specify Type and Framerate....all it says is Quicktime.
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Old August 30th, 2006, 08:56 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Steve Mullen
the FAST folks understand MPEG-2.
Very true since the DC-1000 days until now (includes Pinnacle and FAST). They've started bundling Liquid 7.1 with HD-111 in EU to handle 25fps workflow. Another note about MPEG2 and compatability, Liquid is the only editor that fully supports XDCam in all it's flavors (18, 25 and 35MBit/sec) natively so it is an obvious choice for Sony MPEG2 based cameras as well.

Avid did follow through on the HDV promise but not with Xpress, instead with Liquid which is their solution for MPEG2 streams. They managed full fps (24, 25, 30, 50, 60) and datarate (18.2, 25, 35 Mbit) support for all MPEG2 already.

This carries over into the DTE solutions as well. The native m2t's the DTE solution creates import into Liquid without a hiccup in any framerate or datarate. Overall it's a great marriage without the problems other editors present (fundamental workflow wise).

AFA FCP: SMS (local JVC & FCP post house) bit the bullet and setup an Aja workflow. I believe they've abandoned trying native with FCP completely and a good deal of people around here have either went with Liquid (native) or FCP/Aja (non native) where ProHD 24fps is concerned.

S.Noe

Last edited by Stephen L. Noe; August 30th, 2006 at 11:51 AM.
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Old August 31st, 2006, 05:08 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Steve Benner
From Matt McEwen (Focus Rep on the boards):

"To my knowledge, Final Cut does not support native HDV 720p/24 yet. If and when Apple adds 720p/24 support natively we will most likely support it."
1) Of course FCP doesn't now support 24p. But, that is not the issue. Nor is the fact there are no 50p or 60p camcorders.

2) The issue is -- did they write the firmware to handle 24p, 25p, 30p, 50p, and 60p -- or only for 30p.

3) What happens with the GD101? Does the firmware support 25p?

4) The camcorders that are shipping already output 24p, 25p, and 30p. And, enginners are able to generate 50p and 60p bit streams. So they should have had no problem checking the firmware.

5) They can look at the QT file to see if the firmware has done its job correctly. There is no need for FCP to be able to import it. Or, for a QT player to support 24p.


=============

Currently it seems that when Quicktime is selected under HD mode, it also removes the pulldown....if it didn't, the result would be a 60 FPS clip, not 30.

I don't understand:

1) What do you mean by "HD mode?" There is no pull-down with 30p. And, Repeat Flags are used for 24p.

2) If the Repeat Flags are NOT removed, then the file is 60p, but with only 24 real frames. How do you know the file isn't 60p? I thought you said you could not read the file.

3) If the Repeat Flags are removed, then the file is 24p, with 24 real frames. How do you know the file isn't 24p?
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Old August 31st, 2006, 09:29 PM   #14
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[QUOTE=Steve Mullen]The issue is -- did they write the firmware to handle 24p, 25p, 30p, 50p, and 60p -- or only for 30p.

=============

I had a good chat with the PM today. DTE is a function of the SOURCE, FOCUS FIRMWARE, and SPECIFIC NLE IMPORT FUNCTION. It can't exist until all 3 exist. Since our friends at Apple don't have a 24p or 25p IMPORT function -- there can be no DTE for these. And since there are no 50p or 60p camcorders, there can be no DTE for these.

I did get the feeling that FOCUS saw no problem with with supporting these, whenever Apple releases Import functions.

However, what happens if Apple decides to go with ONLY an Intermediate codec? Either AIC, an "improved" AIC, or CineForm?

These both work by converting HDV to the Intermediate codec during CAPTURE. The source is M2T -- which is already handled by the FOCUS. The converted file is stored on the computer's hard drive. Therefore, DTE is impossible!

And, there's no way the conversion can be done in realtime by anything but a very powerful computer.
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Old August 31st, 2006, 09:49 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Steve Mullen
And, there's no way the conversion can be done in realtime by anything but a very powerful computer.
Or a very expensive codec chip hardwired onto the Focus' breadboard. I wonder what the chances are of that?
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