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Old August 25th, 2006, 10:58 PM   #1
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Concert shot with HD100

Here is a page featuring some performance videos I shot about a month or so ago.

violent femmes
better than ezra
carbon leaf

http://www.kinziebenefitconcerts.com/video.htm

some details - it was shot with one camera, the violent femmes where VERY restrictive about what could be shot, front of the stage only, and killed my board feed, The other two bands were quite co-operative, and it shows, board feed, shoot whatever. Due to restrictions of the bands, you can't see the full length cuts, sorry you only get a minute or so.
Personally the Carbon Leaf video came out best I think, so enjoy...

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Old August 25th, 2006, 11:26 PM   #2
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OMG.....

I saw the Femmes back in '83. They were playing this dump down in Indiana just before their first album came out (it was vinyl back then).
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Old August 25th, 2006, 11:52 PM   #3
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Where in Indiana? Nowhere north of Indy, right?
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Old August 26th, 2006, 12:05 AM   #4
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No, it was south of Indy, but just south of Indy. Maybe Greenwood or off Indiana 37 somewhere. It was some local joint I'd never been to before. My buddie Dave saw them the night before and raved about it so we all went down to check them out. The place was packed (and jumping).
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Old August 26th, 2006, 12:59 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Oakley
it was shot with one camera
Coulda fooled me, it took a closer look at some of the cuts to figure out you were actually taking footage out of its original context, though some of the mismatches were pretty obvious. Well done though.

Audio could use work though. Even if your board feed is mono mix it into both channels so we're not just hearing it from one speaker.

Other HUGE thing to be aware of is that you should NEVER take a board feed clean and use that as your only sound. Always record some kind of ambience, whether from your camera mic or from some external condensers on boom stands (aka bootlegger's mics). This is because the board mix is designed to sound good when played through the FOH speakers in that particular space. By taking it clean, you're taking that space out of the sound and you just hear everything close miced, which sounds incredibly unnatural. You have to add the space back into the sound by recording with an external mic in order to make it sound natural.

The other issue is the audio-visual mismatch. You see the action taking place in this huge space, with a crowd cheering and whatnot, but all you hear is close mics with very little ambience.

Remember, audio is half of video production, don't neglect it.
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Old August 26th, 2006, 08:24 AM   #6
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what settings where used on these shoots?
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Old August 26th, 2006, 11:31 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Polley
what settings where used on these shoots?
I used the TC3 settings, but backed off on all the matrix settings one point because I've found that primary reds and blues will just totally saturate leaving no sublety in color whatsoever. I'm actually planning to do some tests and back of one more point I think, otherwise 720P30

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Old August 26th, 2006, 12:34 PM   #8
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Very nice images, what settings and what filters please I realy like it.
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Old August 26th, 2006, 02:01 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephan Ahonen
Coulda fooled me, it took a closer look at some of the cuts to figure out you were actually taking footage out of its original context, though some of the mismatches were pretty obvious. Well done though.
ok, if you take apart anything, you'll find things. take apart even a big hollywood film and you'll find problems. with this sort of thing, being done one camera, its not going to be perfect. only way you can do that is with multiple cameras. what counts is if it works while it goes by in realtime which it does. No one just watching this play has really picked any serious offenders up where they stopped and pointed it out.Go watch some music videos and scrutinuze them... then you can have lots of fun finding all the mistakes and mismatches

[QUOTE=Audio could use work though. Even if your board feed is mono mix it into both channels so we're not just hearing it from one speaker.[/QUOTE]
the audio is fine. it is a stereo mix so if you are hearing one channel, its on your end. I took the board feed, did some serious work on it because of noise in it, brought the bass up a quite a bit, and mixed in some camera mic. The board feed was also processed through a stereo expander filter to widen it out a bit. I really got a less than great feed, but when you aren't doing a full shoot, you get what get.
This is really a matter of taste. I've been doing concerts for over 15 years in places like madison square garden,nausau colesium and lincoln center and prefer a mainly board feed mix with some ambience mixed in. I really hate overly ambeint mixes because you can't really hear the quality of whats being played.

[QUOTE=Other HUGE thing to be aware of is that you should NEVER take a board feed clean and use that as your only sound. Always record some kind of ambience, whether from your camera mic or from some external condensers on boom stands (aka bootlegger's mics). This is because the board mix is designed to sound good when played through the FOH speakers in that particular space. By taking it clean, you're taking that space out of the sound and you just hear everything close miced, which sounds incredibly unnatural. You have to add the space back into the sound by recording with an external mic in order to make it sound natural.[/QUOTE]

again, this is a matter of *taste*. you're not telling me anything I don't know and haven't done many times. what you are *assuming* is that it was possible. what you don't know is that I got this shoot a day or two before the event, is was done for very little, and I had no opurtunity to talk to the sound people about getting what I really like, a split track feed into a 8 or 16 track recorder for a full mix in post which I have done on big budget projects. there was no budget or time to make that happen. would a audience mic of been nice, sure, but having to be totally mobile, that wasn't an option.One channel to the camera was its own mic, the other was a board feed. if the HD100 had 4 channels in, I would of set two wireless ambient mics as well, but the Hd100 can't do this. I did not have some one else to man the seperate recorder either.

all that said, there some live mic in there, but it did not really enhance the mix, nor did I have time or budget to remix this with a lot of additional crowd, or some tricks with the board feed.

its VERY easy to say what some one else "should of done" but before you do, you should perhaps consider that what happened happened for specific reasons rather than some lack of knowledge and experience. if they wanted to drop me some serious $, I would of gotten and used a much fancier audio setup, but since that didn't happen, it didn't happen and what I got is ok. if your tastes are for very live ambient mixes, thats nice, its not mine nor my clients who are ( not in the case ) several national networks.

so with that said, lets see & hear something of yours shot one camera live and edited like this.

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Old August 26th, 2006, 02:23 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Porter
Very nice images, what settings and what filters please I realy like it.
no filters in shooting, TC3 with matrix reduced 1 point on all settings. color matching was done in FCP with the 3 way CC. on a few shots some secondary correction was done, and in one shot the natural lens flare had some additional flare tracked in to cover up some vertical smear from getting the sun directly in the shot. a couple of shots where stabilized, and in on shot some audience was cloned to fill up an empty area - if you can find it :) all of that work was done in combustion.

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Old August 26th, 2006, 04:30 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Oakley
ok, if you take apart anything, you'll find things. take apart even a big hollywood film and you'll find problems.
That was actually a compliment. The bits you took out of their original context were so well hidden it took a second look to figure them out.

Quote:
it is a stereo mix so if you are hearing one channel, its on your end.
In the quicktime video of Better Than Ezra, it starts with the crowd in both channels, then the board feed starts up in the right channel, then the crowd abruptly disappears, leaving just the board mix on the right side. It's definitely not on my end, I use this rig to record and mix audio.

Quote:
I've been doing concerts for over 15 years in places like madison square garden...{snip}
In this business there are many thousands of people who can say things like "I've shot in X huge venue" or "I've shot for X huge network." It's not all that impressive to say you've done either without many more specifics. Even I can tell people things like "I've shot sporting events at the XCel Center and the Metrodome" or "I've worked on nationally televised network sports coverage" when if you look at where I actually am in the industry, I've still got a long way to go up.

Quote:
I really hate overly ambeint mixes because you can't really hear the quality of whats being played.
It's one thing to have a clean mix, it's another thing for it to be overly clean to the point where it sounds unnatural. A concert is meant to sound like what the sound engineer is hearing at the FOH mixing console, and he's not hearing the straight board mix, he's hearing it colored by the speakers, the space of the venue, the sound of the crowd etc. The straight board mix isn't even supposed to be heard by anyone. In my view concert audio for video production should start from a mic(s) at the FOH position then add board feeds to enhance that, not the other way around. It's really not about being super-clean so you can hear every note, if you do that it looks more like a music video than a concert. A concert's really about the overall experience of being in a crowd and having a good time. My whole philosophy on video production is to bring the viewer into wherever you're shooting, and it's the little audio cues that really sell that.

Quote:
I did not have some one else to man the seperate recorder either.
Depending on how long one "unit" (tape, hard drive, whatever) of audio storage will last you, a quick level set at sound check and leaving it rolling works pretty well for me.

Quote:
so with that said, lets see & hear something of yours shot one camera live and edited like this.
The thing is I simply don't do that. If I'm shooting a concert, I'm cutting it live with at least three camera operators that I'm talking to. My main gig is shooting sports, and while I'll sometimes go out to a game with a single camera, in the final product I'll be showing highlights, not trying to make it look like a live sports broadcast. IMHO that's probably what you should have done here, create more of a promotional video of the event using highlights of the event instead of trying to make it look like a concert shot live. Heck, the super-clean musical track would've made sense there, since it would've really been more of a music video than live event coverage.
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Old August 26th, 2006, 07:02 PM   #12
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I was just discussing the color reproduction of the HD-100 with a producer about 20 minutes ago. He was talking about how the HD-100 was more muted compared to other HDV cameras and I was trying to find an example where someone didn't filter (either in-camera, on-lens or post) the heck out of the image. Even my footage is fooled around with somehow. And sitting here on my other computer, in the same room, was this thread hidden by the energy saver settings. He left before I saw this.

Great clean look.

Not to belabor the audio feed issue but....

I find live concert feeds to be risky at best. Unless there is a person specifically mixing for stereo, the mix is usually too dry or too hot with a particular input.

In my experience, the on-camera mike solution is workable in closed settings. An open air concert is near impossible except if the camera is somewhere in the center of the audience. On stage the audio is just too eccentric to be useful.

The last big live concert I did, we used the room sound to make a multi-camera switch and when the board audio was finally mixed and "sweetened" (for the CD) we dropped the track on. Sounds like a snap, right? Well, we discovered that the sweetening included non existant instruments and one song with extra choruses that were apparently forgotten during the concert. Plus a whole contingent of whoops and "Oh yeahs" from the lead singer that didn't happen in the concert. That took some interesting editing to fix.
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Old August 26th, 2006, 07:35 PM   #13
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Did the musicians perform to a click in their live performance? Otherwise it must've been killer to try to sync up.

Oh, and a group of musicians will never all simultaneously "forget" an arrangement on stage. They probably consciously changed the arrangement some time between when they originally recorded it and when they performed it.
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Old August 27th, 2006, 02:52 AM   #14
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In the quicktime video of Better Than Ezra, it starts with the crowd in both channels, then the board feed starts up in the right channel, then the crowd abruptly disappears, leaving just the board mix on the right side. It's definitely not on my end, I use this rig to record and mix audio.
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ok, you should of said this in the first place. As I read your original post, it read like an entire channel was missing. So a mistake happened, I'll go fix this as it should not of gone out the door that way, but such is life.
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In this business there are many thousands of people who can say things like "I've shot in X huge venue" or "I've shot for X huge network." It's not all that impressive to say you've done either without many more specifics. Even I can tell people things like "I've shot sporting events at the XCel Center and the Metrodome" or "I've worked on nationally televised network sports coverage" when if you look at where I actually am in the industry, I've still got a long way to go up.
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not a poser. I'm not some guy who delivered tapes to the dub house and said I the worked on "THE BIG PICTURE"

here's a link of me directing a 8 camera shoot in a truck, a bit old to but just the same... and a promo for the show which I had nothing to do with, but if you know reggea, you know who these people are. just happened to have these old clips around.

http://71.98.60.159/video/truck2.mov

http://71.98.60.159/video/milenium.mov

another reggea show I worked on several years in a row, paramount theator, MSG. I was 1st AD/ tech supervisor

http://71.98.60.159/video/paramount.mov

I probably have more around, but I hope you'd get the point

if I have to name some names, CBS, ABC, FOX, ESPN, MTV. real on air credits for real work, just done a lot of stuff.

I've shot interviews with over 200 celebs in music. let me name names, mariah, puffy, method man, redman,chick corea,whitney,herbie man,santana,donald trump,patti labelle, and on and on. I've cut peices on barry manilow ( no jokes !), david copperfeild,rita rudner,penn & teller,julie andrews, ect. Tv shows, ever heard of 60 minutes ? amongst others

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It's one thing to have a clean mix, it's another thing for it to be overly clean to the point where it sounds unnatural.
--------------------------

and thats YOUR opinion, and thats fine, but its not mine,nor is its gospel.
----------------------

Depending on how long one "unit" (tape, hard drive, whatever) of audio storage will last you, a quick level set at sound check and leaving it rolling works pretty well for me.

---------------

well without some compression, it doesn't work for me, levels can be all over the place, and moot point, because they way it worked was the way it worked. anyone can armchair quarterback after the games been played.

------------------------
The thing is I simply don't do that. If I'm shooting a concert, I'm cutting it live with at least three camera operators that I'm talking to.
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intercoms are totally useless at any rock/hiphop/reggea event, if you 've ever really done a major concert event, you'd know that

and reality check here, I did not have the the opportunity to have more than one camera, no budget, no time, so what could of been done is irrelavent. so sure I would of had 6-8 cams, but not this time.
---------------
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Old August 27th, 2006, 10:36 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by William Hohauser
I was just discussing the color reproduction of the HD-100 with a producer about 20 minutes ago. He was talking about how the HD-100 was more muted compared to other HDV cameras and I was trying to find an example where someone didn't filter (either in-camera, on-lens or post) the heck out of the image. Even my footage is fooled around with somehow. And sitting here on my other computer, in the same room, was this thread hidden by the energy saver settings. He left before I saw this.

Great clean look.

Not to belabor the audio feed issue but....

I find live concert feeds to be risky at best. Unless there is a person specifically mixing for stereo, the mix is usually too dry or too hot with a particular input.

In my experience, the on-camera mike solution is workable in closed settings. An open air concert is near impossible except if the camera is somewhere in the center of the audience. On stage the audio is just too eccentric to be useful.

The last big live concert I did, we used the room sound to make a multi-camera switch and when the board audio was finally mixed and "sweetened" (for the CD) we dropped the track on. Sounds like a snap, right? Well, we discovered that the sweetening included non existant instruments and one song with extra choruses that were apparently forgotten during the concert. Plus a whole contingent of whoops and "Oh yeahs" from the lead singer that didn't happen in the concert. That took some interesting editing to fix.
Same here William, We always pull the discrete channel feeds and then do the mix in post production and never worry about the live mix other than ambient from the camera mics. It's a completely separate process (audio) and we have a mobile DAW for concerts/clubs specifically (10 channel).

@ S. Oakley, Please don't take the criticism so hard. Stephan Ahonen pointed out some good criticism that can help focus with future projects. I am not a fan of the shaky camera work. Have you considered a steadycam or some way to deshake the results in post? That would polish the video as well.

S.Noe
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