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Old September 15th, 2006, 05:28 PM   #1
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Need help with Multi hd100 shoots

I just went to hell and back trying to synch footage from two hd100s. Even after synching them using an audio clapper, during the middle of the shoot there must of been some capture error from either the camera or ppro2.0 because it became out of synch again even though none of the cameras ever stopped recording. Is there a way to synch two hd100s via time code in hdv mode? I need this ability desperately and it would be nice to have the footage just synch it's self in ppro2.0. It doesn't look like it can be done but I was just wondering if anyone new of any tricks that might be able to help me.
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Old September 15th, 2006, 05:44 PM   #2
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Jonathan.
We usually shoot wuth 3 HD100 for "2nd Unit TV" and I sync the 3 cameras via clapper. It stays in sync (using FCP) so the issue could be with timecode or data breaks in the stream. Have you tried recapturing the footage? Also, MPEG Streamclip can be used to analyze the clips for timecode breaks.
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Old September 15th, 2006, 06:18 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paolo Ciccone
Jonathan.
We usually shoot wuth 3 HD100 for "2nd Unit TV" and I sync the 3 cameras via clapper. It stays in sync (using FCP) so the issue could be with timecode or data breaks in the stream. Have you tried recapturing the footage? Also, MPEG Streamclip can be used to analyze the clips for timecode breaks.
The clapper used to worked great but for some reason I have been getting a few breaks here and there. I think it's either my computer or premiere that is causing the problem. My computer has always been a champ though, and I have never had problems like these when I am editing SD. It seems like it would be easy for jvc to implement some kind of continuous time code. That would be nice but I guess I can get by without it.


Since you mentioned FCP...

Editing/capturing hdv in Premiere has truly been a nightmare. So much, that I am planning on buying a mac pro and FCP studio.

Do you ever have issues with FCP that make it unbearable when it comes to editing/capturing hdv?
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Old September 15th, 2006, 07:11 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Nelson
I am planning on buying a mac pro and FCP studio.

Do you ever have issues with FCP that make it unbearable when it comes to editing/capturing hdv?
Excellent choice. I use a MacBookPro and I edit just fine. In fact, as I write this, I have FCP rendering Episode 11 of "2nd Unit TV", shot with 3 HD100 in HDV-30p.

HDV footage works well in FCP. As you probably heard, 24fps was not supported but a) there are ways around it b) it's gonna be supported in less than a month and you'll get a free upgrade. In fact, on the Mac the upgrades are checked weekly automatically and it takes one button to install updates to the OS and all the programs that you have bought from Apple.
Capturing 30p footage in FCP is a piece of cake and the multicamera support is simply a life saver. I could not use another system without the multi-camera feature. It's just incredible.

Good luck.
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Old September 15th, 2006, 08:52 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Nelson
The clapper used to worked great but for some reason I have been getting a few breaks here and there. I think it's either my computer or premiere that is causing the problem. My computer has always been a champ though, and I have never had problems like these when I am editing SD. It seems like it would be easy for jvc to implement some kind of continuous time code. That would be nice but I guess I can get by without it.


Since you mentioned FCP...

Editing/capturing hdv in Premiere has truly been a nightmare. So much, that I am planning on buying a mac pro and FCP studio.

Do you ever have issues with FCP that make it unbearable when it comes to editing/capturing hdv?
Not to throw water on the issue but....

While I am happy with FCP's abilities with HDV there are a few problems that you might need to know about.

1) Capturing in HDV with FCP is still at version 1 for my nickle. While it has worked I have done some captures that for some reason lost small amounts of footage around the camera pause. Since I usually wait 5 seconds after recording has started before calling "Action" anyway, I have not really had to go back and find footage near the pause.

2) The AIC codec may be more suitable for your editing needs as it converts HDV to a frame-based codec. I have only done test captures to the AIC codec so I can't say if there are any major problems except that there's no logging with AIC capture, just manual start and stop.

I have had time code problems but it seems to be originating with the camera not FCP. On the plus side, editing HDV has been a breeze with my MacBook Pro with many effects and color-corrections being performed in realtime. If you get the computer go to the HDV on Final Cut forum for help.
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Old September 15th, 2006, 11:30 PM   #6
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Hey, thanks guys for the fcp info.

As long as fcp works like it should, I will be happy as a lark. This is will be my first mac purchase of my life.

There is nothing worst then programs crashing and captured footage being thown away before your very own eyes. Its just a big waste of time and not to mention a big MESS. My timeline looks so messy with all the splices I had to make to get everything to match up. I don't know if it was a premiere problem but I would not be surprised.
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Old September 16th, 2006, 02:04 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Nelson
As long as fcp works like it should, I will be happy as a lark.
Yes, I concour on the use of AIC (Apple Intermediate Codec) or any uncompressed codec. I just didn't want to bring potentially confusing information to somebody who has to still run FCP for the first time :)
The point of the matter here is that the HDV codec is not really meant to be an editing format. The GOP format makes it very inconvenient. Because frames in a GOP are stored as "deltas" from provious frames, the only way to apply cuts and effects to them is to basically compute the full frame leading to it and then recompress the clips in order to create new GOPs. FCP does it trasparently but there is a penalty in time to process the effects. Sometimes, depending on the length of your footage, it might be just easier to select AIC or another, more suitable for editing, format.
FCP makes this process very simple. When you create a new sequence, open the option window for it and select the compressor that you want to use. When you'll drop the HDV clips into the sequence, FCP will render the clips using the new codec. It takes a bit of time for rendering but it gives you better performances as you go further with your edit.

Hope this makes sense :)
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Old September 16th, 2006, 06:21 PM   #8
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We had similar problems trying to sync multicam shoots with the HD100. There isn't a TC jam function, like with Betacams while in HDV mode. AFAIK, it will sync up two cams when using DV mode, according to the manual the TC Regen function is for that purpose. The closest way we found was to set the TC to freerun & set the TC menu and hit enter on both cameras as close as possible to the same time.

It will be close enough to find the matching shot. Once in the timeline, you'll find the offset.

We use FCPro and have problems some small problems with TC breaks in continuous rolling shots. Not many with the "A" version camera, but it's still there. I did tests with an hour of continous footage...2 or 3 clips were produced when digitized. No apparent break in the shot, just a hiccup during capture.

When the clip splits like that, FCPro needs to get to the next I frame to start the next clip, sometimes it's a few seconds before the new clip begins.

HTH.

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Old September 16th, 2006, 10:11 PM   #9
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Any of you tried Cineform Aspect HD?

The best way to edit HDV in Premiere may still be the best way to edit HDV...

Cineform converts the file to an intraframe (no GOP) codec on capture. It interpolates to 4:2:2 so you can key more cleanly and it can play many layers in real time, on my system it was doing, as I recall since it's been awhile since I tested, five or six. It just plugs away and hasn't crashed on me, and is generally a joy to edit. Your mileage may vary.

If you weren't alrready considering changing platforms, you might want to download their free trial of Aspect HD and give it a spin. Many people do think that it remains the top HDV solution.

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Old September 16th, 2006, 11:42 PM   #10
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Since most of us are talking about Final Cut, no we probably haven't tried Cineform in Premier. AIC in Final Cut seem to be the equivilent of CineForm, it converts HDV into a true frame-based codec. However the color space remains 4:2:0 so CineForm probably is better for chroma-keys.


Since the HD-100 doesn't have a time-code input for multi-camera shoots, the next best thing is to create a visual or audio sync point. A traditional film clap board does the job nicely. Lacking that, a loud hand clap or a flash from a still camera works also. Just make the clap/flash point the in point of the clip for all the cameras and then create the multi-clip. Very easy.
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Old September 17th, 2006, 12:40 AM   #11
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Dave.
In the past I has breaks in the capture but I found out that a way fo avoiding them is to dedicate the machien to that task. This means to run FCP and nothing else. No browser, no email, no printing. Just let it go through the tape. No breaks in that way, at least not for me.
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Old September 17th, 2006, 12:42 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tip McPartland
Cineform converts the file to an intraframe (no GOP) codec on capture.
Hey Tip.

Yes, that menthod is equivalent to use the alternate codec in the FCP timeline as described above. I used the Blackmagic Design 4:2:2 10-bit (free) but for normal footage AIC is fine. Both codecs are available standard in the FCP installation.
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Old September 17th, 2006, 12:45 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by William Hohauser
A traditional film clap board does the job nicely.
Agreed. The last episode of "2nd Unit" that I edited was slated perfectly (thank you Scott C.) for 3 scenes and it took no effort to sync the 3 cameras multiple times. Loud, clear snap with enough pre-roll and you are all set.
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