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Old September 18th, 2006, 10:25 PM   #16
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I have to color-match live broadcast cameras all the time and I've never had any issue matching a camera in extender (i.e. with a more-open iris due to light loss in extender) with one out of extender. I'll have to experiment next time I get my hands on a camera.

I never went to film school, so that would explain why I didn't learn the first thing they taught in it. =D I come from a live broadcast and ENG shooting background.
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Old September 18th, 2006, 10:36 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Miltos Pilalitos
When you have an ND filter on the lens you can open more the iris without overexposing your image.

The more open the iris is the more saturated the colours will be. This is what you learn in the first year of filmschool. :)

So, Neutral Density filters DO affect color saturation. You can try it yourself at home. Lock the camera in position and take the same shot with the iris almost closed and wide open (adjust exposure with ND). When you compare the two takes you will see that the one with the Iris open has obviously more colour saturation.
This sounds very suspicious to me.

First, won't film and video camera sensors react differently?

Since I did study experimental psychology, I know that when there is less light in the eye, there is less color because the color receptors in the eye require more light.

However, how can the identical amount of focused light on a piece of film have its color saturation changed by the size of the opening in the lens.

However, maybe their are some special laws of optics that let more "color" pass through a wider open lens at lower light levels? It still sounds suspicious. But it may be true!
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Old September 18th, 2006, 10:40 PM   #18
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The scenario called for higher shutter speed in order to get white or near white elements properly exposed @ F 2.8. Since the whites were brought in line (exposure wise) it brought other colors darker which makes it look more saturated. The effect is a shade or black level adjustment (opposite of tint).

The colors will become more saturated if the black level is increased. Instead of changing the parameters in the menu, I chose to do it with a filter and controlling the shutter in order to bring the overall white (saturation) down. This does not affect the hue at all.
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Old September 18th, 2006, 10:46 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by David Scattergood
Yes - superb Stephen.
You could worse than try the new (ish) Libec LS38 - perfect for the HD100 and brilliantly made.
I had my eye on the Libec LS-55 as a replacement for the M20. Tell me more about the LS-38, is it as lightweight as the M20?
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Old September 18th, 2006, 11:38 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miltos Pilalitos
When you have an ND filter on the lens you can open more the iris without overexposing your image.

The more open the iris is the more saturated the colours will be. This is what you learn in the first year of filmschool. :)

So, Neutral Density filters DO affect color saturation. You can try it yourself at home. Lock the camera in position and take the same shot with the iris almost closed and wide open (adjust exposure with ND). When you compare the two takes you will see that the one with the Iris open has obviously more colour saturation.
No. that is just plain WRONG. opening the iris on a color negative increases its exposure. That increases contrast & color saturation, by over exposing 1-2 stops you'll get more "pop" with your image. most colors negs will take a 1 stop over exposure and you might not even notice. you usually have to go about 3 stops to get into trouble. underexposure is another story, which is never good.

all a ND filter does is reduce the amount of light hitting the film or chips. it allows you to open the iris and reduce DoF. thats it . no magic, and certainyl no change in saturation.

if you are claiming an increase in saturation and the iris is nearly fully closed, its obvious that there so much overexposure going on, that ND is simply getting you back to where you are supposed to be. Most lenses have a sweet spot around T4-T8, so being at T16-32 introduces pinhole lens effects which diffract the image. this can lead to some loss of color fidelity, but not saturation unless you are at the point od simply burning the image totally out.

please tell us what film school & professor so that they can be educated and stop "educating" with bad information.

Steve Oakley
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Old September 19th, 2006, 06:49 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Oakley
if you are claiming an increase in saturation and the iris is nearly fully closed, its obvious that there so much overexposure going on, that ND is simply getting you back to where you are supposed to be.
Steve Oakley
Ehm, No i am not claiming this.

I guess i wasn't very clear on my explanation so partly you are right.

Technicaly having the iris wide open doesn't increase an image's given colour saturation but having it almost closed may decrease it.

So, in case of exterior shootings and bright sunlights, trying to shot with the iris more open using ND filters might give you better colour reproduction than shooting with the iris almost completly closed.

I sensed a little aggression or "passion" in your message Steve and that got me thinking. Maybe it really WAS a bad filmschool or maybe after 14 years that i finished it i have some info mixed up in my head...

Well, life will go on i guess :)

Miltos
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Old September 19th, 2006, 07:42 AM   #22
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With all due respect guys, please get out there with your camera's and try for yourselves. The HD-100 camera's ND filters are not nearly strong enough in a broad daylight scenario.

I think everyone can agree that a blown out, over exposed image ruins colors because of a preponderence of white (color). So yes, ND does affect color (not hue but black and gamma level) and shutter allows a more open iris to maintain the image at the lens' sweet spot for the best possible clarity and detail.
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Old September 19th, 2006, 12:29 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen L. Noe
I think everyone can agree that a blown out, over exposed image ruins colors because of a preponderence of white (color). So yes, ND does affect color (not hue but black and gamma level) and shutter allows a more open iris to maintain the image at the lens' sweet spot for the best possible clarity and detail.
Are you using a matter box with square filters or are you using screw-on filters?
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Old September 19th, 2006, 12:30 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen L. Noe
I think everyone can agree that a blown out, over exposed image ruins colors because of a preponderence of white (color). So yes, ND does affect color (not hue but black and gamma level) and shutter allows a more open iris to maintain the image at the lens' sweet spot for the best possible clarity and detail.
Are you using a matter box with square filters or are you using screw-on filters when you are traveling. If you are using a matte box, which one and how does it travel -- convenience, space, packing, etc.
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Old September 19th, 2006, 02:19 PM   #25
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Kudos, Stephen. Very well done. Great choice on music.
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Old September 19th, 2006, 05:45 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Walker
Are you using a matter box with square filters or are you using screw-on filters when you are traveling. If you are using a matte box, which one and how does it travel -- convenience, space, packing, etc.
Jack,

I was using an 82mm Tiffen 0.6 screw on filter in that scenario. For matte box I choose Chrosziel but not for travel. I choose screw on filters and use a baseball cap for a sunshade if I need to.
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Old September 20th, 2006, 04:20 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Stephen L. Noe
Hi guys,

Scott, the principal scene file was Panamatch.

Hey Stephen, great stuff! Any particular reason for this recipe? Would you use or recomend another one now (ie Paolo's true-color 3)? All of the possible recipes are one of the camera's strongest, yet confussing, points to me...

The music is also wonderful. Thanks for sharing -

john
evilgeniusentertainment.com
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Old September 20th, 2006, 09:51 PM   #28
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John,

Stephen will be able to answer your question better. But as a panamatch scene file user myself (about 90% of the time), I highly endorse it if you want your images to be a little warmer than Paolo's TC. If you do color correction or if you are DP who is very particular about lighting, gels, etc; Paolo's TC would be perfect as it yields true color. If you want to just shoot and have that instant rich look, I suggest the panamatch look. I actually crush the blacks even more so than Stephen's original settings. Sometimes, I underexpose as you get beautiful blacks that way.

Tim Dashwood's warm, green, bleach bypass, film noir are also great settings -depending on what you need them for. This camera is very capable of gorgeous stuff!!
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Old September 20th, 2006, 10:35 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by John Vincent
Hey Stephen, great stuff! Any particular reason for this recipe? Would you use or recomend another one now (ie Paolo's true-color 3)? All of the possible recipes are one of the camera's strongest, yet confussing, points to me...

The music is also wonderful. Thanks for sharing -

john
evilgeniusentertainment.com
John,

George is right in a couple of regards. I posted the Panamatch file a long time ago and the goal was to match a DVC30 Movielike color gamut. It's just a coincidence that Paolo later came out with the TC3 scene file that is amost identicle to my Panamatch with the exception of my color balance settings lean more toward a finished product "in camera". I think Panamatch and TC3 are pretty popular.

Give it a try.

A comment about the music in the video. The lead in the choir is my wifes brother, Nikolai Posohov. He recorded it when he was 10 years old (now 24) and singing soprano. He has a most excellent singing voice and it was a pleasure to finally use some of his work.
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Old September 21st, 2006, 03:08 PM   #30
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Thanks guys Stephen, George. I will be using it for sure... The ability to change the in-camera look has got to by one of this camera's strongest selling points. I wish it could store more presets, as I do quite a bit of run-and-gunning, but that is a pretty small beef.

john
evilgeniusentertainment.com
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