So I plugged my HD-100 in to my new HD 32" LCD TV at DVinfo.net

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Old November 27th, 2006, 04:02 AM   #1
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So I plugged my HD-100 in to my new HD 32" LCD TV

...and I have to say I was slightly disappointed. There was grain (mosquito sworms as I've heard it described) on internal and to a lesser extent on external shots. The footage in question used the pannamatch recipe. Gain was set to 0. It was straight from the camera with no editing or processing.

Are all HDV cameras in this price range like this?

Its just that the footage looks excellent on computer LCD's and when projected. Especially compared to SD and DV footage.


Andrew
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Old November 27th, 2006, 04:16 AM   #2
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Have you already configured your TV right? if it is a new one, you should consider that the standard settings usually have a very high colour and detail/sharpness setting. Sharpness set to a value too high, brings out small imperfections in the vicinity of the edges, musquito noise, indeed.

However, the footage from my JVC GY-HD101 looks absolutely fabulous on my JVC LCD LT32-S60. I haven't been able to spot any musquito noise, nor any considerable MPEG motion artifacts. I'm very pleased with the performance of the ProHD MPEG2 codec. That is why I suppose you might want to look at the settings of your LCD. If this HD doesn't look impressive compared to SD or DV, something is wrong...

In low light situations some grain might indeed be visible, even with gain set to 0. If you don't like that, you might want to reconsider your black settings (stretch, compress, pedestal).
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Old November 27th, 2006, 04:32 AM   #3
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I've went thru the settings of the LCD, and everything is set for the perfect picture. Digital TV and SD DVD's whilst exhibiting blockyness, do not show any mosquito noise.

Are you playing edited footage on an SD DVD or footage via component out straight from the camera?

I'm going straight from the camera via component out using expensive conponent cables.

Andrew
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Old November 27th, 2006, 04:46 AM   #4
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me too (well both, actually. And I have to say it looks best unedited straight from the camcorder). How big is your lcd? is it a 1080 or a 720 lcd? with 1080 some things could be a matter of the upscaling engine... (I like it on my lcd even better then on computer LCD's while it is the other way around for you - but my lcd is 720 natively and not that big - especially compared to american standards, perhaps that could be it?)

EDIT: Stupid of me, I just see the title of your post saying it is 32 inch as well. 1366 x 789?
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Old November 27th, 2006, 09:09 AM   #5
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FWIW, I was totally impressed with the results of playback on a Panasonic 42" plasma. Using the HDMI output on the playback VTR (our BR-HD50), I know I'm seeing the true recorded signal with no analog noise being introduced. The colors are rich and true, and the detail is absolutely incredible. I have never seen footage look better, actually. With a better lens and certain conditions, I might be fooled into thinking this was a much more expensive camera.
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Old November 27th, 2006, 10:21 AM   #6
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Everything looks dreadful on both my LCD displays - rubbish technology IMHO. They can't handle highlights or shadows and reveal all the flaws in any footage that's not perfect. HDV1 looks particularly bad on certain screens. Some LCDs are better than others, though. Personally, I'd rather watch a high-end consumer SD CRT than a Lying Cheating Display any day.
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Old November 27th, 2006, 12:03 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew Curran
...and I have to say I was slightly disappointed. There was grain (mosquito sworms as I've heard it described) on internal and to a lesser extent on external shots. The footage in question used the pannamatch recipe. Gain was set to 0. It was straight from the camera with no editing or processing.

Are all HDV cameras in this price range like this?

Its just that the footage looks excellent on computer LCD's and when projected. Especially compared to SD and DV footage.


Andrew
Hi Drew,

Using a consumer TV to evaluate footage is not a good idea. There are all kinds of artifacts that a consumer TV may introduce into good footage. Stick with a proferssional grade monitor.
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Old November 27th, 2006, 12:39 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Carl Hicks
Hi Drew,

Using a consumer TV to evaluate footage is not a good idea. There are all kinds of artifacts that a consumer TV may introduce into good footage. Stick with a proferssional grade monitor.
Nevertheless, Carl... I'm sure that 99% of my clients do not have professional grade equipment. That's why I normally use a consumer TV to check my work, in order to see the client's POV.
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Old November 27th, 2006, 12:46 PM   #9
 
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I have played back output from my HD100 directly into the DVI input on my Sony TV. I don't remember the model, but, it's an older 32" CRT device, with HDTV 720p capable circuitry...ie, it has component and DVI inputs. The "live" images are so stunning that i would just LOVE to be able to capture that 4:2:2 info, somehow. I still haven't figured out how.
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Old November 27th, 2006, 01:52 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Sergio Barbosa
Nevertheless, Carl... I'm sure that 99% of my clients do not have professional grade equipment. That's why I normally use a consumer TV to check my work, in order to see the client's POV.
Absolutely. For finishing, I use a properly maintained and calibrated trustworthy broadcast grade 1 CRT together with a low-end CRT composite TV and - lately - a cheap LCD so that I can evaluate the footage on a proper monitor but also get a good sense of the lowest common denominator - granny's TV.
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Old November 27th, 2006, 01:56 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew Curran
...and I have to say I was slightly disappointed. There was grain (mosquito sworms as I've heard it described) on internal and to a lesser extent on external shots. The footage in question used the pannamatch recipe. Gain was set to 0. It was straight from the camera with no editing or processing.

Are all HDV cameras in this price range like this?

Its just that the footage looks excellent on computer LCD's and when projected. Especially compared to SD and DV footage.


Andrew
I have seen the same problem with my Samsung 32" HDTV LCD, however after seeing the same footage on a $40,000 projector I'm inclinded to believe that the LCD is introducing some artifacts. I used the component analog of the HD-100 to view footage and have not used the HD50 deck with the HDMI output (the LCD is at home). It's very possible that the analog to digital conversion in the LCD is creating artifacts on top of otherwise near invisible artifacts.
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Old November 27th, 2006, 02:39 PM   #12
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What reasonable compromise for LCD then?

OK. We all agree that a professional CRT TV, costing several thousands of dollars, would be the best way to evaluate our precious HDV images.

But what would be the options for a reasonable compromise on an LCD set?

What size, what specs?

Is there any place we can go have a look at tests they did, if possible using HD or HDV images?

The only one I know are those from PC Magazine, but they do not use the references we use. And they are not too thorough tests, that might give us an idea on what to expect.

Anyone can suggest any other place?


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Old November 28th, 2006, 02:09 AM   #13
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William it could be your samsungs engine that's straining under the pressure, I saw it on some Lg LCD's but up against a Sharp Aquos or a Toshiba LCD there's a difference.
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Old November 28th, 2006, 07:45 AM   #14
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Thanks for the comments. It seems it is inferior LCD technology i'm using. Its and LG LCD HD ready TV, not sure which model.

I guess I am like so many HD100 owners. I wanted to see some footage on an HD TV, rather than having to down grade to SD before seeing it on a TV.

The picture is sharp, its the moving grain/mosquitos noise I see that was dissapointing. I understand that this will happen in low light, but I wasn't expecting as much in bright sunlight.

I saw and HD demo on the shop (BBC HD preview) and it was soooooo crisp and clear. I hoped I'd see something simmilar.

Carl, I'm not using the LCD for grading or CC. I was simily curious to see HD footage on an HD monitor.

I should buy a better HD tv to see the best results it seems.

By the way, I'm totally delighted with the footage I've shot so far, converted to SD DVD and played on a standard CRT TV.

Andrew
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Old November 28th, 2006, 11:08 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlos E. Martinez
OK. We all agree that a professional CRT TV, costing several thousands of dollars, would be the best way to evaluate our precious HDV images.

But what would be the options for a reasonable compromise on an LCD set?

What size, what specs?

Is there any place we can go have a look at tests they did, if possible using HD or HDV images?

The only one I know are those from PC Magazine, but they do not use the references we use. And they are not too thorough tests, that might give us an idea on what to expect.

Anyone can suggest any other place?


Carlos


You don't have to have an expensive pro crt to see great footage from a JVC Pro HD camcorder.

If it looks bad on your LCD its your LCD causing it. There are LOADS of LCD TV's out there that are vastly inferior and produce a very poor picture. If you look at it closely, anything you watch on it will look bad including DVD's. Most of the LCD's out there in the installed base don't have enough native resolution support to even do 720P without scaling. And speaking of scaling, the internal scalers of these sets are horrible too and not worthy of judging footage from a pro grade camcorder.

I use the Dell 24" LCD to view the footage via component. This LCD has a resolution greater than 1080 and scales the image pixel for pixel. Footage from our HD100 is nothing short of breathtaking. We've done several jobs in SD and HD with the camera, none of our clients have complained, in fact clients that see the footage want to work with us and integrate the camera into their projects because it costs less than renting a betasp rig.
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