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Old January 7th, 2007, 08:42 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Duke
I know. it didn't really seem that slow at all, considering I am going to shoot people flipping through air etc, I am not sure 60p will be slow enough. What to do? Slow it down in FCP?
Brian, that's what has been bothering me too-the motion is just not slow enough. I wish it were half what I'm seeing now, but how do we achieve that? Anyone have any ideas?
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Old January 7th, 2007, 09:36 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Dashwood
Stephen,

Would you mind sending me the original captured m2t of the shot where the gun drops? It looks like your NLE is interpolating the frames and I'd like to try the Mac process on it.
Yes, it did interpolate those frames. I used the trailing slomo effect (cumulative effect of 2 frames) on the gun drop and gun pickup on purpose. The mother grabbing her head and the other woman entering the room are straight slow motion (frame for frame).
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Old January 7th, 2007, 09:41 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Dashwood
Here's the small bit of Keith's original m2t. I had to trim it to just a few seconds to make the download manageable.
Right-Click here - 13MB

I posted a link to the original m2t Carl sent me in the top post. Unfortunately, it isn't original straight from the camera, but had been through PP2. Carl is going to try to get the original clip for us.
For some reason the m2t's slow motion doesn't look so slow. When I played it back at full speed, the woman is moving very quickly. I tried putting the file at 20% speed but then it becomes stop motion and I'm forced to use a mixed frame method in order to get it smooth @ 20%. 20% would be an effective framerate of 12fps. In this case (super slow motion) the Varicam and HVX200 are the champs.
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Old January 7th, 2007, 09:42 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaadgy Akanni
Brian, that's what has been bothering me too-the motion is just not slow enough. I wish it were half what I'm seeing now, but how do we achieve that? Anyone have any ideas?
None of the current HD camcorders can exceed 60fps. The Panasonic Varicam, Panavision Genesis, Arri D20, and I think even RED's maximum framerates are 60fps.
The Dalsa Origin can only go as high as 32fps, but the SI-2K seems to be the winner with a max of 72fps in 720P mode.

1080i and 1080PsF cameras generally only have a maximum framerate of 30fps because of the restrictions of 60i (even though some filmmakers have successfully used 1080i60 HDCAM for slow-mo ie:Once Upon A Time in Mexico)
The F350 XDCAM HD is the exception and can go as high as "60P" but I think Sony does this by using a single field of 1080i leaving you with 540 lines (Nate, can you please confirm this?)

There are hi-speed CCD/CMOS alternatives to hi-speed film cameras, but these are usually specially designed for research and need to be attached to a computer for direct capture to hard drive.
Dalsa makes some hi-def chips/cameras that can capture 100fps. I have seen footage from some hi-speed research CCD cameras that can capture as many as 1000fps!

The bottom line is that contrary to popular belief, film is far from dead.

If you are shooting action scenes and want frame rates higher than 60, your film options are:
  • 35mm Wilcam hi-speed - up to 300fps. $1500/day
  • 35mm Arri 435 - up to 150fps. $800/day
  • 35mm Arri 35-3 with hi-speed control - up to 130fps. $375/day
  • 35mm Mitchell 35R3 - up to 120fps. $350/day
  • Super-16 Arri 16SR3 Hi-Speed - up to 150fps. $500/day
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Old January 7th, 2007, 09:54 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen L. Noe
For some reason the m2t's slow motion doesn't look so slow.
She is actually doing her Kung Fu very very quickly...That is why everyone thinks it doesn't look so slow.

The calculation of perceived speed is playback speed divided by camera speed. In this case 24 divided by 60 = 40%
Therefore shooting 60P and playing back at 24P is 40% speed of 'real-time', shooting 50P and playing back at 24P (or 25P) is around 50% speed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen L. Noe
I tried putting the file at 20% speed but then it becomes stop motion and I'm forced to use a mixed frame method in order to get it smooth @ 20%. 20% would be an effective framerate of 12fps. In this case (super slow motion) the Varicam and HVX200 are the champs.
No, 20% would be an effective frame rate of 120fps. As I mentioned in my post above, none of the currently available CCD/CMOS HD camcorders are capable of framerates above 60fps.

When you speak of 12fps in the Varicam and HVX200 you are referring to "undercranking" or "fast-motion." It is very easy to undercrank at 12fps on the HD100 by setting the shutter to 1/24th (for equivalent 180 shutter,) shoot in 24P, and then speed the clip up in post by 200%. This will effectively drop every other frame and you will have under-cranked footage shot at 12fps! Think "Keystone Cops."
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Old January 7th, 2007, 10:14 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Dashwood
That is why everyone thinks it doesn't look so slow...she is actually doing her Kung Fu very very quickly.

The calculation of perceived speed is playback speed divided by camera speed. In this case 24 divided by 60 = 40%
Therefore shooting 60P and playing back at 24P is 40% speed of 'real-time', shooting 50P and playing back at 24P (or 25P) is around 50% speed.


No, 20% would be an effective frame rate of 120fps. As I mentioned in my post above, none of the currently available CCD/CMOS HD camcorders are capable of framerates above 60fps.

When you speak of 12fps in the Varicam and HVX200 you are referring to "undercranking" or "fast-motion." It is very easy to undercrank at 12fps on the HD100 by setting the shutter to 1/24th (for equivalent 180 shutter,) shoot in 24P, and then speed the clip up in post by 200%. This will effectively drop every other frame and you will have under-cranked footage shot at 12fps! Think "Keystone Cops."
I think there is misunderstanding. 20% of 60fps would be 12fps effective which is how my NLE calculates slow motion. ie with 60fps footage, I need to "conform" it in the time warp editor to 50% in order to make the framerate match up to 30fps on a 30fps timeline. If we're talking in camera then yes, we'd need to crank @ 120.
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Old January 7th, 2007, 01:39 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen L. Noe
I think there is misunderstanding. 20% of 60fps would be 12fps effective which is how my NLE calculates slow motion. ie with 60fps footage, I need to "conform" it in the time warp editor to 50% in order to make the framerate match up to 30fps on a 30fps timeline. If we're talking in camera then yes, we'd need to crank @ 120.
Oh... your 'playback framerate' is 12fps. That makes sense, but each frame would be doubled as you mentioned, and would require motion interpolation software if you wanted to create "in-betweens" to smooth it out. Twixtor can do this and I've used Avid Symphony's "timewarp" (I think that is what it is called) with success.
A few years ago I saw a demo at IMAX head office of some motion interpolation software they were working on to create smooth slow motion in post production. It was quite convincing - I wonder if they ever went anywhere with it? It still not as ideal as overcranking, but works in a pinch.
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Old January 7th, 2007, 02:54 PM   #23
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Is it just me or is the kung-fu clip really soft? The juggling clip looks good (if a bit dark) but the kung-fu looks like upconverted SD to me.
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Old January 7th, 2007, 04:17 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Stephan Ahonen
Is it just me or is the kung-fu clip really soft? The juggling clip looks good (if a bit dark) but the kung-fu looks like upconverted SD to me.
No it's not just you. I was going to ask Keith if he had checked his backfocus.
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Old January 7th, 2007, 09:30 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Dashwood
The 1/60 shutter speed used is the equivalent of using a 1/24th shuter when shooting 24P, so the motion blur is unnaturally long. The shutter speed really should be above 1/120 to exactly mimic the look of overcranked film at 60fps.
The clip played back fine, I believe it was just the motion blur I was noticing, especially in the Kung Fu clip. The motion blur tends to make the clip more like a 24P clip slowed down in post than a 60P clip. Either way Tim, thanks for the quick update and it's good to see that some 200/250 60P clips are starting to see the light of day. I am anxious to see some more soon.
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Old January 9th, 2007, 03:58 AM   #26
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thanks for posting the m2t file, it gave me the chance to do a test. im in europe working with pc and was wondering how to crank with edius pro.
opened a 720p 25 project, imported the m2t file into edius changed the framerate of the 60p clip to 25 in the clip property window, put it on the timeline, voila, nice slowmo.
i'm very excited! expect to get the hd200 this week.

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Old January 9th, 2007, 06:52 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Dashwood
Yes, it is actually very easy to do this with Mpeg Streamclip.
You just need to enter 23.976 into the frame rate box when exporting to quicktime. Mpeg Streamclip will cherry-pick 24 frames out of the 60 and create a new file 24P quicktime. This is similar to a reverse telecine process from a 60i transfer, but of course the math is easier and the process is "dummy proof" because every one of the 60 frames is progressive.
You should test it out first and make sure sync is maintained with long clips. I tested this only on Keith's short clip.
Hi, thank you Tim for posting all of this useful info. It will make my test-shooting shorter, anyway I was wondering as you talk about shooting in 60p and transfer over to 24p is it possible to shoot 50p an transfer that over to 24p with MPEG-streemclip. Or is it better to shoot 60p? (more frames when you do slowmo) I have a JVC PRO HD-111E

Also I heard that when shooting a music video (on film-mostily) they spreed up the music on the set by 20% shoot the video in 30fps and then in post (editing it in 24fps) they slow the hole video down, about 20% so they keep lip-sync but get a nice dreamlike effect. Has any one done that with the JVC cam. or a HDV cam. for that matter.

Sorry about my spelling, I come from a land far far away.
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Old January 9th, 2007, 07:30 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Eirikur Ingi Bodvarsson
Hi, thank you Tim for posting all of this useful info. It will make my test-shooting shorter, anyway I was wondering as you talk about shooting in 60p and transfer over to 24p is it possible to shoot 50p an transfer that over to 24p with MPEG-streemclip. Or is it better to shoot 60p? (more frames when you do slowmo) I have a JVC PRO HD-111E
Yes. Both will work, but 50P will only give you about 50% speed, and 60P will give you 40% speed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirikur Ingi Bodvarsson
Also I heard that when shooting a music video (on film-mostily) they spreed up the music on the set by 20% shoot the video in 30fps and then in post (editing it in 24fps) they slow the hole video down, about 20% so they keep lip-sync but get a nice dreamlike effect. Has any one done that with the JVC cam. or a HDV cam. for that matter.
Yes... that works and I have done it before. In fact, I shot a music video once on an NTSC XL1 in frame mode and sped the music track up 125% speed. Then we slowed the footage down to 80% speed which equaled 24fps for instant 'filmlook.'
I know the math doesn't seem to make sense at first glance, but here's how it works.

30 ÷ 24 = 125% (speed your soundtrack up 25% for on-set playback.)

24 ÷ 30 = 80% (slow your 30P footage down to 80% speed to playback at 23.98fps. Perfect sync will be maintained.)


If you really want to make it hard on performers, try running at 50P! The calculations aren't as clean because 50P actually is 50fps, but 24P is only 23.976.
So...
50 ÷ 23.976 = 208.5% (speed the soundtrack up to 208.5% speed)

23.976 ÷ 50 = 47.95% (slow the footage down to 47.95% speed for 24P playback in perfect sync.)
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Old January 16th, 2007, 11:34 AM   #29
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Pouring wine in slow motion - HD200 60P

Here is a test I did with my new 200!

Originally shot at 60p with the iris fully open and a 100/shutter. I've used aspect HD with Premiere so they are not native HDV files and then compressed to sorenson video 3 for web.

http://www.andrewkramer.net/60pat24fps.mov
This is 60p slowed to 24 frames per second.
47MBs


http://www.andrewkramer.net/30ptest.mov
This is 60p at 30p in real time. (no slow motion)
19MBs

Process:
1. Filmed at 60p with shutter at 1/100 with aperature all the way open
2. (with aspect HD installed) created a new 60P project from the 24p 720p cineform preset and simply changed the frame rate to 60. I'm not sure if this is nenessary but I didn't see an option for 60p at 720p resolution.
3. Opened in After Effects and interpreted the footage as 24p and put on a 24p timeline.

Thought I would share.

Last edited by Andrew Kramer; January 16th, 2007 at 12:48 PM.
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Old January 16th, 2007, 12:42 PM   #30
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Thanks Andrew. I'm going to append this to the stuck thread with the other slow-motion examples.

Can you please explain your process step by step?
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