Do I have a problem with my camera shooting HDV? at DVinfo.net

Dennis Robinson · January 17th, 2007, 05:14 AM

Hi,
I am in Pal land (Australia) and really dont like the stepping I get shooting HDV on my JVC GY-HD110. I have read where one has to pan slowly to avoid the progressive shudder, but after quite a bit of practice shooting, I am unable to understand where i can use this camera. Shooting SD is fine. I shoot mainly commercials. Are there settings I need to use to get a better result?

Brian Luce · January 17th, 2007, 05:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dennis Robinson

Hi,
I am in Pal land (Australia) and really dont like the stepping I get shooting HDV on my JVC GY-HD110. I have read where one has to pan slowly to avoid the progressive shudder, but after quite a bit of practice shooting, I am unable to understand where i can use this camera. Shooting SD is fine. I shoot mainly commercials. Are there settings I need to use to get a better result?

is the shudder in 30p or just 24p?

Dennis Robinson · January 17th, 2007, 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Luce

is the shudder in 30p or just 24p?

Hi Brian,
I am shooting 720/25p (Pal)

Alessio Martinelli · January 17th, 2007, 06:02 AM

surely the 720/25p

Sergio Barbosa · January 17th, 2007, 06:13 AM

Someone suggested that the higher the "detail" level (sharpness), the more noticeable the judder would be... I feel the same as you do, and, concerning pans, there are basically two things you can do: pan even slower, or much faster (swift pans)... track an object while you pan... this judder is inherent to shooting with such a ''low'' frame rate, as in film! if you pay close attention to some of the films you watch, that judder happens too, although not so jumping to your eyes. A number of "how to make a film" guides, teach you techniques to avoid that issue.

Dennis Robinson · January 17th, 2007, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sergio Barbosa

Someone suggested that the higher the "detail" level (sharpness), the more noticeable the judder would be... I feel the same as you do, and, concerning pans, there are basically two things you can do: pan even slower, or much faster (swift pans)... track an object while you pan... this judder is inherent to shooting with such a ''low'' frame rate, as in film! if you pay close attention to some of the films you watch, that judder happens too, although not so jumping to your eyes. A number of "how to make a film" guides, teach you techniques to avoid that issue.

Thanks for your help Sergio.
I have the sharpness set at default and I still wonder if there is something wrong with the camera. If I shoot 50i SD it is great... really great!... but at 25p SD it is unusable vision I feel.
Did I do the wrong thing buying a progressive camera?
I didnt want the Sony as it is a small form type and I hate to think i may have to. I have only had this camera 2 months.
I would love to hear fro others who may be able to advise.

Bill Ravens · January 17th, 2007, 07:41 AM

there's some issues with the default shutter speed on the HD100/110 at 24fps. Dunno if it also applies to 25fps, but, make sure you're shooting at a shutter speed that's no less than 2x the frame rate.

Dennis Robinson · January 17th, 2007, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Ravens

there's some issues with the default shutter speed on the HD100/110 at 24fps. Dunno if it also applies to 25fps, but, make sure you're shooting at a shutter speed that's no less than 2x the frame rate.

Thanks Bill.
I havent tried the shutter speed but will do. I use default 50 at the moment. I am hoping you may have given me something to help.

Paul Jefferies · January 17th, 2007, 08:23 AM

Just curious, but where are you seeing the judder on playback - on the camera screen, on a computer or on a monitor? The reason I ask is that I shoot 25P on the JVC regularly, and although I can see a change in the image when compared to interlace, I don't find the image objectionable and I can't see this extreme Judder that many people are talking about - maybe it's my eyes that need replacing? The only time I've seen objectionable judder is when the camera was being played through an old tube monitor, I think the monitor was not capable of playing back progressive properly and that caused the judder effect

Bill Ravens · January 17th, 2007, 08:28 AM

I shot some HDV24p that was VERY objectionable. The "judder" was so severe that the horizontal pans almost had double images. It appeared only in horizontal panning and disappeared completely on stationary shots. I believe my problem was using a 24 fps shutter speed. At 24fps, a minimum of 48fps should be used.

Werner Wesp · January 18th, 2007, 01:52 AM

Well, there's just one solution to this: get used to shoot 25p. I had to get used to it also, and it took some time, but once you're accustomed to that you won't have a problem anymore. I shoot sports and from the shoulder confidently in 25p.

If anything your 'cinematography' will automatically improve.

How to do this or how to get accustomed to this? Well, first the difficult part: even while you're shooting 25p, you see 50p in the viewfinder, so everything looks smooth, while it might not be after capture. So you NEED to get used to what 25p looks like.

When you think you can 'estimate' the cadance of 25p you can start shooting. The rules:
1) pan slow (very, very slow) and smooth if you're not following/tracking an object. Actually, if you're not following a subject, just try not to pan at all... why should you? Pans are virually always bad shots, contain less sharpness (due to motion) and have very limited use in edits.
2) When following/tracking an object, don't worry: there won't be any judder, just try to keep the motion of the camera smooth and even.
3) Use a tripod/steadicam whenever possible: this will improve the quality of your footage anyway.

Dennis Robinson · January 18th, 2007, 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Werner Wesp

Well, there's just one solution to this: get used to shoot 25p. I had to get used to it also, and it took some time, but once you're accustomed to that you won't have a problem anymore. I shoot sports and from the shoulder confidently in 25p.

If anything your 'cinematography' will automatically improve.

How to do this or how to get accustomed to this? Well, first the difficult part: even while you're shooting 25p, you see 50p in the viewfinder, so everything looks smooth, while it might not be after capture. So you NEED to get used to what 25p looks like.

When you think you can 'estimate' the cadance of 25p you can start shooting. The rules:
1) pan slow (very, very slow) and smooth if you're not following/tracking an object. Actually, if you're not following a subject, just try not to pan at all... why should you? Pans are virually always bad shots, contain less sharpness (due to motion) and have very limited use in edits.
2) When following/tracking an object, don't worry: there won't be any judder, just try to keep the motion of the camera smooth and even.
3) Use a tripod/steadicam whenever possible: this will improve the quality of your footage anyway.

Thank you Werner,
I read every word you said and will try my best to take it on board. I was concerned that my camera had a problem but as you say, it is the way I am used to shooting. That being the case, isnt it better to shoot interlaced like the Sony?

Drew Curran · January 18th, 2007, 03:43 AM

The new HD200/250 can shoot and record 50p and 60p - this might be a better option than the sony if you prefer the form factor of the JVC.

Andrew

Werner Wesp · January 18th, 2007, 04:10 AM

Dennis, don't worry, it takes some time, but you'll get used to it. If you really can't get yourself to shoot as steadily as is required for progressive, 50p progressive or 50i would be a better option (obviously preferrably 50p). On the other hand: it is a (slow) learning process you'll have to go through and you'll come home with some awful footage, but once you get the hang of it, your shots will be better then before (overall steady and slow cameramotion is always a lot more pleasant to look at).

50p can be an option. I would never recommend 50i (don't get me started...). But I think that even the best advice is: invest some time and effort to get it right in 25p progressive. You'll be a better shooter when you've mastered that.

Dennis Robinson · January 18th, 2007, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Werner Wesp

Dennis, don't worry, it takes some time, but you'll get used to it. If you really can't get yourself to shoot as steadily as is required for progressive, 50p progressive or 50i would be a better option (obviously preferrably 50p). On the other hand: it is a (slow) learning process you'll have to go through and you'll come home with some awful footage, but once you get the hang of it, your shots will be better then before (overall steady and slow cameramotion is always a lot more pleasant to look at).

50p can be an option. I would never recommend 50i (don't get me started...). But I think that even the best advice is: invest some time and effort to get it right in 25p progressive. You'll be a better shooter when you've mastered that.

Thanks Werner,
I went to your site and had a look at some of the links which gave me a much bettter idea. i must admit that i was disappointed with my purchase but will spend the time to get to know how to use this camera. I love everything about it except for the judder.
I had a Canon XL1s for a few years before this one I bought 2 months ago and felt the JVC was the obvious choice because of its form factor.
I have a matte box and large battery kit to add to its look. I shoot and edit TV commercials for a living and love what i do.
Thank you for your help and if there are any other helpfull hints, let me know.

January 17th, 2007, 05:14 AM	#1
Dennis Robinson Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Perth, Australia Posts: 250	Do I have a problem with my camera shooting HDV? Hi, I am in Pal land (Australia) and really dont like the stepping I get shooting HDV on my JVC GY-HD110. I have read where one has to pan slowly to avoid the progressive shudder, but after quite a bit of practice shooting, I am unable to understand where i can use this camera. Shooting SD is fine. I shoot mainly commercials. Are there settings I need to use to get a better result? __________________ Dennis Robinson G5, , 30 inch display, FCP6 Studio 2, JVC-GYHD111

January 18th, 2007, 01:52 AM	#11
Werner Wesp Major Player Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Belgium Posts: 497	Well, there's just one solution to this: get used to shoot 25p. I had to get used to it also, and it took some time, but once you're accustomed to that you won't have a problem anymore. I shoot sports and from the shoulder confidently in 25p. If anything your 'cinematography' will automatically improve. How to do this or how to get accustomed to this? Well, first the difficult part: even while you're shooting 25p, you see 50p in the viewfinder, so everything looks smooth, while it might not be after capture. So you NEED to get used to what 25p looks like. When you think you can 'estimate' the cadance of 25p you can start shooting. The rules: 1) pan slow (very, very slow) and smooth if you're not following/tracking an object. Actually, if you're not following a subject, just try not to pan at all... why should you? Pans are virually always bad shots, contain less sharpness (due to motion) and have very limited use in edits. 2) When following/tracking an object, don't worry: there won't be any judder, just try to keep the motion of the camera smooth and even. 3) Use a tripod/steadicam whenever possible: this will improve the quality of your footage anyway. __________________ High-Definition Video Consultant - CEO of Delimex NV - http://www.delimex.be gear of choice : http://www.wespgear.com

January 18th, 2007, 03:43 AM	#13
Drew Curran Major Player Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: N. Ireland Posts: 370	The new HD200/250 can shoot and record 50p and 60p - this might be a better option than the sony if you prefer the form factor of the JVC. Andrew __________________ Pixol www.pixol.co www.facebook.com/pixolmedia www.twitter.com/pixolmedia

January 18th, 2007, 04:10 AM	#14
Werner Wesp Major Player Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Belgium Posts: 497	Dennis, don't worry, it takes some time, but you'll get used to it. If you really can't get yourself to shoot as steadily as is required for progressive, 50p progressive or 50i would be a better option (obviously preferrably 50p). On the other hand: it is a (slow) learning process you'll have to go through and you'll come home with some awful footage, but once you get the hang of it, your shots will be better then before (overall steady and slow cameramotion is always a lot more pleasant to look at). 50p can be an option. I would never recommend 50i (don't get me started...). But I think that even the best advice is: invest some time and effort to get it right in 25p progressive. You'll be a better shooter when you've mastered that. __________________ High-Definition Video Consultant - CEO of Delimex NV - http://www.delimex.be gear of choice : http://www.wespgear.com

January 17th, 2007, 06:02 AM	#4
Alessio Martinelli New Boot Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: italy Posts: 24	surely the 720/25p

January 17th, 2007, 06:13 AM	#5
Sergio Barbosa Regular Crew Join Date: May 2006 Location: Portugal Posts: 140	Someone suggested that the higher the "detail" level (sharpness), the more noticeable the judder would be... I feel the same as you do, and, concerning pans, there are basically two things you can do: pan even slower, or much faster (swift pans)... track an object while you pan... this judder is inherent to shooting with such a ''low'' frame rate, as in film! if you pay close attention to some of the films you watch, that judder happens too, although not so jumping to your eyes. A number of "how to make a film" guides, teach you techniques to avoid that issue.

January 17th, 2007, 07:41 AM	#7
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	there's some issues with the default shutter speed on the HD100/110 at 24fps. Dunno if it also applies to 25fps, but, make sure you're shooting at a shutter speed that's no less than 2x the frame rate.

January 17th, 2007, 08:23 AM	#9
Paul Jefferies Major Player Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Croydon, England Posts: 277	Just curious, but where are you seeing the judder on playback - on the camera screen, on a computer or on a monitor? The reason I ask is that I shoot 25P on the JVC regularly, and although I can see a change in the image when compared to interlace, I don't find the image objectionable and I can't see this extreme Judder that many people are talking about - maybe it's my eyes that need replacing? The only time I've seen objectionable judder is when the camera was being played through an old tube monitor, I think the monitor was not capable of playing back progressive properly and that caused the judder effect

January 17th, 2007, 08:28 AM	#10
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	I shot some HDV24p that was VERY objectionable. The "judder" was so severe that the horizontal pans almost had double images. It appeared only in horizontal panning and disappeared completely on stationary shots. I believe my problem was using a 24 fps shutter speed. At 24fps, a minimum of 48fps should be used.