Sorry, but a few more questions at DVinfo.net

Brian Orser · March 25th, 2007, 05:47 PM

Ok, I'm wondering a few things about my JVC HD 110.

When in manual iris, is the iris control ring supposed to still feel pretty stiff to respond and as if the servo is partly engaged? I feel like I'm sort of forcing the motor around. Doesn't feel very manual. It does feel different from auto iris mode though, when you cant move it at all...

Immediately after switching from manual zoom to servo mode, the first time I use the rocker to zoom in or out I hear a big click from the lens. Is this normal?

I have not recorded anything yet (though it is kiling me) because I want to make sure I use the tape brand I will always be using because of what I have read about switching tape stock and lubricants etc. Is it really an issue to use a different tape stock one time? Is it easy to clean the heads of the deck so as to switch stock? It is only a difference in manufacturers, not between every stock right? (ie, I could use all types of Sony stock..)

Another thing about tape stock. I have heard it said that Sony has a wet lubricant while other companies have dry lubes. This taken from a post about head cleaning in preparation for switching stocks:

Quote:

5) NEVER mix wet or dry tapes. (Sony sells wet tapes, JVC, Panasonic, TDK sell dry tapes.) Its basically the kind of lubrication the tapes use.

Does he mean that if I use Sony, I'll never be able to switch?

Thank you in advance. I don't want to screw anything up. Sorry for all the questions...

Your help would be appreciated,

Brian

Don Bloom · March 25th, 2007, 07:19 PM

the iris ring should turn a bit tightky or else you might mistakenly change it and it will probably loosen up a bit as it ages an gets used so I wouldn't worry too much about that.

You will hear a click when you switch from manual to the rocker on most lens-after all the mechanisim has to click in.

As far as which toape to use I know folks that use Sony, some use Pannys others use the JVC tapes-it's all over the board but as for trying different tapes and switching while it may not be the choie thing to do IF you use an appropriate headcleaner tape PROPERLY BEFORE chaning tapes you should be OK. Notice I'm hedging a bit but thats my nature when it comes to this particular subject. As for using one brand and then switching later yes you can however if you've run a lot of the same brand of tape thru the camera before you change brands or types of tapes my own feeling is the camera should have a thorough going thru by a mfg service center including cleaning and aligning the heads-again thats my personal preference on this subject.
There will be other opinions I'm sure so read 'em all and decide what you think will work best for you.
Don

Gary Morris McBeath · March 25th, 2007, 07:46 PM

Brian,

Regarding the resistance in your zoom ring: if the camera "full auto" is set to off, and the lens is set to manual, there should be no more than the normal amount of resistance (a nice smooth feel) in the ring.

Regarding the "click" when you you use the rocker for zooming, I've never heard that in any cam I've owned. I'm thinking you might go back to your dealer or value added reseller, and check with them about the lens.

Now, for my rant. About tapes. Seems to be the biggest kept secret in the industry, that is, the true nature of a particular brand of tape, it's lubricant, the best head cleaning tape to use, how abrasive it is, if it is really designed for your particular camera, etc.

There is no way under the sun or clouds you are going to get an answer. Like CD's and DVD's, I would guess there are actually only a few tape manufacturers, and the different brands out there come from those same few. Does a particular company use XYZ company this month, but the ABC company next month. Is the Panny Advanced mastering tape the same as the JVC tape? One would think so, since, at least until now, they are both owned by the same company. But do you think we can get a straight answer from anyone?

I started with the Sony "Digital Master" tapes because my usual suppliers did not have the JVC tapes available at the time I bought my HD100 (Sept 05). After reading many negative posts about the Sony tapes (wrong lube, very abrasive etc. ), worried to death, and the JVC tapes still not available, I switched to the Panny "Advanced Mastering Quality" (AMQ) tapes. Gotta be the same as the JVC tapes, right? Ordered a slew of them. Guess what? Have had the occasional drop-out, something I didn't experience with the Sony tapes. So, will I try the JVC tapes? Not if the Panny tapes are any indicator.

Are the JVC tapes any better? Read the posts: Somewhere, somehow, there is someone with a dropout problem, be it JVC, Sony, Panny. Just pick a brand, someone has good luck, someone does not.

So, until a someone figures out how to determine who manufacturers the tape, and if a particular batch is good etc, this is what I know:

If you switch brands, use a head cleaner in-between. And hope it cleans all the previous brand's lubricants off the drum.

A freind with one company told me long ago: Pick a brand, stay with it. The wear charistaristics of a particular brand or batch will wear the drum and heads in a certain way. If you change brands, then that wear pattern may change. Probably makes sense.

So, I guess I can't answer your question. No one can. It's personal experience.

I'm off my soap box now. I'd love for this to spark the discussion of the century on this forum. And If I'm wrong, please let me know. We will all be better off for it.

Cheers, Peace, and a life without dropouts and headwear.

Gary

Stephan Ahonen · March 25th, 2007, 07:57 PM

The iris ring has resistance to it so it doesn't drift around or spin too easily. You want it that way, trust me, it makes on-the-fly iris adjustments look a lot smoother.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary Morris McBeath

Regarding the "click" when you you use the rocker for zooming, I've never heard that in any cam I've owned. I'm thinking you might go back to your dealer or value added reseller, and check with them about the lens.

You might want to qualify that with what kind of cameras you've owned. If you've never used an ENG form factor camcorder, then you would have never run across this phenomenon.

In an ENG lens the zoom ring is mechanically coupled to a servo which is physically engaged and disengaged via the "manual/servo" switch underneath. When you flip it back into servo after using it in manual for a while the servo gear might not be completely lined up with the teeth in the zoom ring. Using the rocker switch will spin the zoom servo and engage it back into the teeth of the zoom ring. That's the click you hear. Completely normal and harmless.

Brian Orser · March 25th, 2007, 08:39 PM

Excellent answers. Thank you guys. Just wanted to be sure I wasn't doing something wrong. It looks like a sad state of affairs in tapeland Gary. I hope this becomes more transparent soon.

In regards to the tape, I'm beginning to understand the obscurity and subjectivity of the whole issue. However, two questions I still have are unanswered:

Is it true that Sony, unlike the other big companies, uses a liquid lubricant? And, if so, is it true that this should NEVER be mixed with dry lubes of other companies during the lifetime of the camera?

Also, would it be ok to use ONE tape (my first tape on this cam) of a different kind without a head cleaning after, so I can actually start testing this camera before I choose my manufacturer of choice and buy my bulk shipment of stock?

Thanks a lot everyone,

Brian

Gary Morris McBeath · March 25th, 2007, 09:07 PM

Stephan,

I've used Beta SP, owned a GY-DV500U and an HDCAM 750. Never had that happen. However, never used the zoom on manual, always used the servo; actually seldom zoomed during a take, but just to set framing. Just like I've never used auto exposure etc.

So, I never got a change to experience that.

Good info.

Gary

Ted Ramasola · March 25th, 2007, 09:09 PM

Brian,

Iris resistance, that gives this thick fluid feeling is normal.

The click when you use the rocker after you engage the servo is normal.

I suggest at this point in time to use dry cleaning tapes.

I had experimented with tape stocks, and its quite normal for tapes to have drop outs at the start, like say, first 2-5 seconds, thats why you should safely have tape rolling for 10 seconds before calling action, I found the jvc stock from my purchases here in asia to have longer drop out times as compared to the panasonic brand. So from then on I stuck with panasonic tape stock. Sony is also good but slightly more pricey. When i purchase in bulk, this slight diference adds up.

Ted

Jack Walker · March 25th, 2007, 09:42 PM

Regarding tapes:

I have been told that the former situation of incompatible lubricants is no longer an issue. The problem was not that one was wet and one was dry but rather that when two incompatible lubricants mixed they got gummy. And there were only two different kinds, but as I said this supposedly is not an issue anymore.

Bottom line with the JVC camera is that anybody who is official (e.g. Carl Hicks) and anybody I know who has used the camera in situations where the images are extremely valuable (e.g. Tim Dashwood shooting a legit feature for film transfer) has said to use the JVC ProHD tapes.

This is what I decided to do. There are two reasons I find this a good idea: (1) it's what JVC says to use, (2) at a little under $10 each they are cheaper than the comparable tape in the other brands.

Others have used all different tapes, including the $2.50 Sony premium tapes, and claimed no problems, just as there are people who have claimed to have had serious problems with all the different options, including the JVC tapes. A while back I had the question as to whether it was okay to switch between the JVC HDV and DV tapes, depending on which I was shooting. Recently someone, I believe it was Tim, said that it is probably best just to stick with the ProHD HDV tapes for everything. (If I were only shooting DV and were shooting hours and hours of it, I am pretty sure I would use the JVC or Sony DV tapes and stick with them... but I ... and I imagine most, bought the JVC camera to shoot DV, so this isn 't applicable.)

As I said, my choice is to use the JVC ProHD recommended tapes. For some things I also use DV Rack, and the tape is just a backup. For the most reliability it makes sense to me to use a hard disk recorder and use the JVC ProHD tape as a backup.

Brian Orser · March 25th, 2007, 11:41 PM

Ted: Thank you. Good to know about the JVC. I think I might go Sony.

Jack: Thanks for the info. Though, I don't agree that just because a company says you should use their product that it's because it is necessarily the best, I do think there may be something to be said for the JVC cam/JVC tape compatibility.

Thanks again,

Brian

Ted Ramasola · March 26th, 2007, 12:28 AM

Your welcome Brian,

Now go forth and SHOOT some footage! You got a great cam there.

Just a tip, please check out some scene files here that you might find useful. I have used Paolo's TC v3 and it has given me great satisfaction in post.

Also, you might want to turn down peaking a little bit because this might mislead you to think that the scene is very grainy in low light. I rely on the cam's very good focus assist feature to achieve focus.

Good luck,

Ted

Matthew Rogers · March 26th, 2007, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Orser

Ok, I'm wondering a few things about my JVC HD 110.
I have not recorded anything yet (though it is kiling me) because I want to make sure I use the tape brand I will always be using because of what I have read about switching tape stock and lubricants etc. Is it really an issue to use a different tape stock one time? Is it easy to clean the heads of the deck so as to switch stock? It is only a difference in manufacturers, not between every stock right? (ie, I could use all types of Sony stock..)

I know many people said you should be alright switching brands if you use a head cleaner, but here's something else you might want to think about. The heads are not the only thing the tape touches! The tape runs through a bunch of "pulleys" to keep it the right tension over the head. Whatever lube the tape uses will get on those also. A head cleaner tape will not clean that! I would suggest reading this forum post <http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=6888>. I know it's for the DVX-100, but a tape transport is a tape transport--size is really only the main difference. I have had wonderful success in using this method to clean my heads. Also, if you take it in for a professional cleaning, this is exactly what they would do.

Matthew Rogers

Brian Orser · March 26th, 2007, 10:52 AM

Ted: I will as soon as my tape arrives :) In regards to TrueColor: I'm already planning on it. Thanks for the tip. I will experiment with the peaking levels, and see what you're talking about. Thanks again.

Matthew: Very good point. Had not thought of that. Also, excellent tutorial. Very good resource. Thanks a lot. I think that if ever switch stock I will send my cam in to manufacturer to be cleaned, or brave it myself as in that tutorial. Thanks.

March 25th, 2007, 08:39 PM	#5
Brian Orser Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Santa Cruz, CA Posts: 87	Excellent answers. Thank you guys. Just wanted to be sure I wasn't doing something wrong. It looks like a sad state of affairs in tapeland Gary. I hope this becomes more transparent soon. In regards to the tape, I'm beginning to understand the obscurity and subjectivity of the whole issue. However, two questions I still have are unanswered: Is it true that Sony, unlike the other big companies, uses a liquid lubricant? And, if so, is it true that this should NEVER be mixed with dry lubes of other companies during the lifetime of the camera? Also, would it be ok to use ONE tape (my first tape on this cam) of a different kind without a head cleaning after, so I can actually start testing this camera before I choose my manufacturer of choice and buy my bulk shipment of stock? Thanks a lot everyone, Brian Last edited by Brian Orser; March 25th, 2007 at 10:23 PM.

March 25th, 2007, 07:19 PM	#2
Don Bloom Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,609	the iris ring should turn a bit tightky or else you might mistakenly change it and it will probably loosen up a bit as it ages an gets used so I wouldn't worry too much about that. You will hear a click when you switch from manual to the rocker on most lens-after all the mechanisim has to click in. As far as which toape to use I know folks that use Sony, some use Pannys others use the JVC tapes-it's all over the board but as for trying different tapes and switching while it may not be the choie thing to do IF you use an appropriate headcleaner tape PROPERLY BEFORE chaning tapes you should be OK. Notice I'm hedging a bit but thats my nature when it comes to this particular subject. As for using one brand and then switching later yes you can however if you've run a lot of the same brand of tape thru the camera before you change brands or types of tapes my own feeling is the camera should have a thorough going thru by a mfg service center including cleaning and aligning the heads-again thats my personal preference on this subject. There will be other opinions I'm sure so read 'em all and decide what you think will work best for you. Don

March 25th, 2007, 07:46 PM	#3
Gary Morris McBeath Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Steilacoom Washington Posts: 72	Brian, Regarding the resistance in your zoom ring: if the camera "full auto" is set to off, and the lens is set to manual, there should be no more than the normal amount of resistance (a nice smooth feel) in the ring. Regarding the "click" when you you use the rocker for zooming, I've never heard that in any cam I've owned. I'm thinking you might go back to your dealer or value added reseller, and check with them about the lens. Now, for my rant. About tapes. Seems to be the biggest kept secret in the industry, that is, the true nature of a particular brand of tape, it's lubricant, the best head cleaning tape to use, how abrasive it is, if it is really designed for your particular camera, etc. There is no way under the sun or clouds you are going to get an answer. Like CD's and DVD's, I would guess there are actually only a few tape manufacturers, and the different brands out there come from those same few. Does a particular company use XYZ company this month, but the ABC company next month. Is the Panny Advanced mastering tape the same as the JVC tape? One would think so, since, at least until now, they are both owned by the same company. But do you think we can get a straight answer from anyone? I started with the Sony "Digital Master" tapes because my usual suppliers did not have the JVC tapes available at the time I bought my HD100 (Sept 05). After reading many negative posts about the Sony tapes (wrong lube, very abrasive etc. ), worried to death, and the JVC tapes still not available, I switched to the Panny "Advanced Mastering Quality" (AMQ) tapes. Gotta be the same as the JVC tapes, right? Ordered a slew of them. Guess what? Have had the occasional drop-out, something I didn't experience with the Sony tapes. So, will I try the JVC tapes? Not if the Panny tapes are any indicator. Are the JVC tapes any better? Read the posts: Somewhere, somehow, there is someone with a dropout problem, be it JVC, Sony, Panny. Just pick a brand, someone has good luck, someone does not. So, until a someone figures out how to determine who manufacturers the tape, and if a particular batch is good etc, this is what I know: If you switch brands, use a head cleaner in-between. And hope it cleans all the previous brand's lubricants off the drum. A freind with one company told me long ago: Pick a brand, stay with it. The wear charistaristics of a particular brand or batch will wear the drum and heads in a certain way. If you change brands, then that wear pattern may change. Probably makes sense. So, I guess I can't answer your question. No one can. It's personal experience. I'm off my soap box now. I'd love for this to spark the discussion of the century on this forum. And If I'm wrong, please let me know. We will all be better off for it. Cheers, Peace, and a life without dropouts and headwear. Gary

March 25th, 2007, 09:07 PM	#6
Gary Morris McBeath Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Steilacoom Washington Posts: 72	Stephan, I've used Beta SP, owned a GY-DV500U and an HDCAM 750. Never had that happen. However, never used the zoom on manual, always used the servo; actually seldom zoomed during a take, but just to set framing. Just like I've never used auto exposure etc. So, I never got a change to experience that. Good info. Gary

March 25th, 2007, 09:09 PM	#7
Ted Ramasola Trustee Join Date: May 2005 Location: Allen, Texas U.S.A Posts: 1,117	Brian, Iris resistance, that gives this thick fluid feeling is normal. The click when you use the rocker after you engage the servo is normal. I suggest at this point in time to use dry cleaning tapes. I had experimented with tape stocks, and its quite normal for tapes to have drop outs at the start, like say, first 2-5 seconds, thats why you should safely have tape rolling for 10 seconds before calling action, I found the jvc stock from my purchases here in asia to have longer drop out times as compared to the panasonic brand. So from then on I stuck with panasonic tape stock. Sony is also good but slightly more pricey. When i purchase in bulk, this slight diference adds up. Ted

March 25th, 2007, 09:42 PM	#8
Jack Walker Trustee Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Burbank Posts: 1,811	Regarding tapes: I have been told that the former situation of incompatible lubricants is no longer an issue. The problem was not that one was wet and one was dry but rather that when two incompatible lubricants mixed they got gummy. And there were only two different kinds, but as I said this supposedly is not an issue anymore. Bottom line with the JVC camera is that anybody who is official (e.g. Carl Hicks) and anybody I know who has used the camera in situations where the images are extremely valuable (e.g. Tim Dashwood shooting a legit feature for film transfer) has said to use the JVC ProHD tapes. This is what I decided to do. There are two reasons I find this a good idea: (1) it's what JVC says to use, (2) at a little under $10 each they are cheaper than the comparable tape in the other brands. Others have used all different tapes, including the $2.50 Sony premium tapes, and claimed no problems, just as there are people who have claimed to have had serious problems with all the different options, including the JVC tapes. A while back I had the question as to whether it was okay to switch between the JVC HDV and DV tapes, depending on which I was shooting. Recently someone, I believe it was Tim, said that it is probably best just to stick with the ProHD HDV tapes for everything. (If I were only shooting DV and were shooting hours and hours of it, I am pretty sure I would use the JVC or Sony DV tapes and stick with them... but I ... and I imagine most, bought the JVC camera to shoot DV, so this isn 't applicable.) As I said, my choice is to use the JVC ProHD recommended tapes. For some things I also use DV Rack, and the tape is just a backup. For the most reliability it makes sense to me to use a hard disk recorder and use the JVC ProHD tape as a backup.

March 25th, 2007, 11:41 PM	#9
Brian Orser Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Santa Cruz, CA Posts: 87	Ted: Thank you. Good to know about the JVC. I think I might go Sony. Jack: Thanks for the info. Though, I don't agree that just because a company says you should use their product that it's because it is necessarily the best, I do think there may be something to be said for the JVC cam/JVC tape compatibility. Thanks again, Brian

March 26th, 2007, 12:28 AM	#10
Ted Ramasola Trustee Join Date: May 2005 Location: Allen, Texas U.S.A Posts: 1,117	Your welcome Brian, Now go forth and SHOOT some footage! You got a great cam there. Just a tip, please check out some scene files here that you might find useful. I have used Paolo's TC v3 and it has given me great satisfaction in post. Also, you might want to turn down peaking a little bit because this might mislead you to think that the scene is very grainy in low light. I rely on the cam's very good focus assist feature to achieve focus. Good luck, Ted

March 26th, 2007, 10:52 AM	#12
Brian Orser Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Santa Cruz, CA Posts: 87	Ted: I will as soon as my tape arrives :) In regards to TrueColor: I'm already planning on it. Thanks for the tip. I will experiment with the peaking levels, and see what you're talking about. Thanks again. Matthew: Very good point. Had not thought of that. Also, excellent tutorial. Very good resource. Thanks a lot. I think that if ever switch stock I will send my cam in to manufacturer to be cleaned, or brave it myself as in that tutorial. Thanks.