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Old April 27th, 2007, 09:59 PM   #1
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BlackMagic Multibridge Extreme analog input?

Hello,

I own the BlackMagic Multibridge Extreme and the JVC GY-HD110.

I was capuring some analog video with BlackMagic and the video looks soft, I thought that when using this box I would get better quality HD/DV video, then capturig firewire.

I wonde how-much video quality do I lose when capuring analog?
Would it be better to capture HD using the firewire?

I love the full resolution HD monitoring but I would love to have a great quality video too.

The JVC BR-HD50U has the component out so I don't think I would get better video quality.

What about the The HD-Connect SI?
This would convert 1394 (HDV) to HD/SDI.

http://www.convergent-design.com/CD_...DConnectSI.htm
Thanks for the help!!
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Old April 28th, 2007, 03:24 PM   #2
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Hi Santos - so you had acquired video onto TAPE in the JVC HD110? And you were exporting it from tape via the multibridge? Is that correct? Where does it appear 'soft' - in Final Cut Pro?
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Old April 28th, 2007, 10:47 PM   #3
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Santos,

The analog signal shouldn't look noticeably soft on the output monitor when capturing uncompressed 720P. Make sure that your output is set to either 720P or native in the VIDEO menu on the BR-HD50.
The disadvantage of working this way is that the deck is converting digital to analog, and then the multibridge is converting it back to digital.

You mentioned the Convergent-Design SI box. It works well converting HDV to HD-SDI. The HD-Connect LE does the same thing but with more IO options.
The only problem with HDV to HD-SDI is firewire latency, which requires some fiddling with RS-422 TC offset.

Convergent-Design now has the HD-Connect MI, which works well with the BR-HD50U deck. It takes the HDMI output, which is fully digital and includes the embedded audio, and then converts that to HD-SDI.
I've been using one for the last month and it works very well, especially since the last firmware update (v1.1.37).
This is the most ideal way to work because there is practically no latency (not even one frame) and the audio is already embedded digitally in the HD-SDI signal - meaning only one single cable connection to your Decklink system.
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Old April 28th, 2007, 11:49 PM   #4
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Here is an interesting article/review/evaluation of the Convergent Design HD-Connect-MI. The BR-HD50U is specifically named in the discussion:

http://www.creativecow.net/articles/...ign/index.html

Two-page flyer from Convergent Design:
http://www.convergent-design.com/hdm...nnectMI_US.pdf

It seems it lists at about $600.
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Old April 29th, 2007, 12:40 AM   #5
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Thanks to all for your time!

Yes Scott,
I acquired the video onto TAPE in the JVC HD110, and captured the video via the multibridge.

I am using a Polaroid FLM-323B - 32" LCD TV - 720p - HDTV to view the video.

I am about to sell the Multibridge Extreme after I read this article in the blackmagic site.

http://www.blackmagic-design.com/sup...asp?techID=102


"Why wouldn't I always want to capture via Multibridge if the video quality is so much higher compared with Firewire?
If you have already recorded your video to the tape inside your HDV camera, best quality will be achieved by capturing the tape to your computer via Firewire. Using the analog output of the camera would not help in this case as the video would already have been tightly compressed in the HDV format and outputting analog video from the camera is not going to improve the quality and will only add analog noise. NLE software, including Final Cut Pro HD v5.0 and Premiere Pro 1.5.1 & 2.0, will enable you to capture HDV material via Firewire."

I would love to capture unconpress HD video but this means that I will have to bring my conputer,monitor and Multibridge to location.


If anyone like to buy it please let me know.
I got it from B&H about 2 months ago, I have the box, bill of sell and 12ft SONICWAVE™ RCA TYPE TO BNC COMPONENT VIDEO INTERCONNECT.

Thanks,
Jose
jose.s.ramos@gmail.com
850-980-6262
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Old April 29th, 2007, 07:43 AM   #6
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Yes - I came within inches of buying a blackmagic card (which would have had a result similar to that of the multibridge), seeking that same 'full uncompressed HD output' from from my JVC GY-HD100UA when it suddenly occurred to me that 'maybe once the video is on the tape, the card won't help.' I asked around and discovered that indeed that was exactly the situaion. I never saw the frankly very clear statement at the blackmagic website about this, and you I guess saw it too late. BlackMagic's website, by the way, is absolutely superb.

Another thing to remember: We may be tempted to go for the full-uncompressed HD 'tap-out' from this JVC camera at least for for times when we are in a studio setting, where it would be easy to wire the camera to a computer. But wait:

What invades our world then is a need for enormously improved infrastructure to handle the massive HD video:

You need big big drives on which to capture it all at time of shooting (lots of them, throwing out a lot of heat)...

...you need a big RAID in order to manage the editing of the uncompressed video....

...you cannot store your finished HD product on HDV tapes but rather you need whole FW drives devoted to just archiving (or you can dump your HD production to tape but I was told by a friend that the tape recording machine required for full-HD tape costs $30k...

So our camera has these spectacular capabilities, but taking truly FULL advantage of them can be costly and does pose logistical problems.

But hey: We get a lot of incredibly beautiful footage out of this camera in HDV -- better than anybody else's HDV. It's a little sad that we can't make use of the full HD yet, but isn't it only a matter of time before the logistics and pricing of all these items falls? And when that happens our JVC GY HD100UA and similar models will be well positioned to take advantage of them.

Or if you don't want to wait that long, well then there is also the possibility of your simply becoming immensely richer, through the success of your work, so you can simply afford all of this stuff, including a butler to stand next to you while you are shooting, holding an 8-core MacPro (and keyboard) (and mouse)...
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Old April 29th, 2007, 09:32 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Santos Ramos View Post
"Using the analog output of the camera would not help in this case as the video would already have been tightly compressed in the HDV format and outputting analog video from the camera is not going to improve the quality and will only add analog noise."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Shuster
'maybe once the video is on the tape, the card won't help.'
No offense, but I find it hard to understand why this isn't completely obvious. It's the "weak link in the chain" logic, and it's important to apply in everything from initial cinematography through to final output.
In fact this is part of the great appeal of this camera series and JVC's engineering. From the native chip resolution of the sensor, through to encoding it is very well balanced. It's a great credit to the camera that perhaps the weakest link is in the (not so bad) stock lens, and that is upgradeable!
The advantages of the hardware cards are still there: Having accurate HD video output for display live from the editor and output to high end HD medium (eg HD-cam), Live, accurate, up/down format conversion, working color modification, compositing, graphic integration in the higher color space/less compressed environment, etc.
For long form work though, it would be a bear unless you work with proxy footage first.

What specific HDV compression related problems/effects are you guys seeing with your footage? In other words that you see on tape, but you DON't see when live monitoring?
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Old April 29th, 2007, 10:46 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Walker View Post
Here is an interesting article/review/evaluation of the Convergent Design HD-Connect-MI. The BR-HD50U is specifically named in the discussion:
Too bad the headline in that cow article is factually wrong! The HD-Connect MI DOES NOT convert firewire to HDMI.
In actual fact, the "MI" converts Firewire CONTROL to RS-422, AND simultaneously converts HDMI digital video/audio to HD-SDI with embedded audio. It is a magical box indeed and I highly endorse it and the very helpful staff at Convergent-Design.
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Old April 30th, 2007, 11:29 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Dashwood View Post
Santos,

The analog signal shouldn't look noticeably soft on the output monitor when capturing uncompressed 720P.
Maybe it should not look noticeably soft, or then again maybe it should, I have yet to see a great image on any camera via component... either way the HD100 does go soft in this area. I have enough footage comparing uncompressed component to the tapes HDV, I would stick with HDV. When I look and see component these days I say yep that's would you should expect. ;)

The Convergent-Design does sound like a pretty cool product however, I would have liked to check one out.

For anyone else...
If you are looking to bypass HDV simply to gain more color, then component to DVCPRO HD is at least an option. Just be prepared to trade detail for color. But if you are going to spend the money to go uncompressed (Black Magic, RAID, etc) then you should keep to the SDI route and go with the HD250. Component from the HD100 is fine to monitor HD during a shoot (just know that it looks sharper to tape), end of story.

Santos, the Multibridge is an excellent product, just not in the way you intended to use it. That's still a very nice piece of hardware you have, we love ours. Sean has made some good points about the devices strengths, add in the fact that it has SDI, a better chance for that on your next camera with the demand rising the way it is. Just a thought.

Peace!
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Old May 1st, 2007, 12:33 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Dashwood View Post
Convergent-Design now has the HD-Connect MI, which works well with the BR-HD50U deck. It takes the HDMI output, which is fully digital and includes the embedded audio, and then converts that to HD-SDI.
I've been using one for the last month and it works very well, especially since the last firmware update (v1.1.37).
This is the most ideal way to work because there is practically no latency (not even one frame) and the audio is already embedded digitally in the HD-SDI signal - meaning only one single cable connection to your Decklink system.
Tim, if you have HDMI output, you may consider skipping everything you described above, get Intensity card from Blackmagic (it is a HDMI in and out card) and transfer all your stuff without any conversion straight to your computer. They sell the card below $300
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Old May 1st, 2007, 12:39 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Shuster View Post
We may be tempted to go for the full-uncompressed HD 'tap-out' from this JVC camera ...

What invades our world then is a need for enormously improved infrastructure to handle the massive HD video:

You need big big drives on which to capture it all at time of shooting (lots of them, throwing out a lot of heat)...

...you need a big RAID in order to manage the editing of the uncompressed video....

...you cannot store your finished HD product on HDV tapes but rather you need whole FW drives devoted to just archiving (or you can dump your HD production to tape but I was told by a friend that the tape recording machine required for full-HD tape costs $30k...

So our camera has these spectacular capabilities, but taking truly FULL advantage of them can be costly and does pose logistical problems.


Or if you don't want to wait that long, well then there is also the possibility of your simply becoming immensely richer, ... including a butler to stand next to you while you are shooting, holding an 8-core MacPro (and keyboard) (and mouse)...
Or:

get FCS2 and AJA IO HD, use ProRes 422 and fire the butler.
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