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Old April 15th, 2012, 11:34 PM   #1
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What's the feeling about $5K JVC vs $15K/$30K Canons

So now we know -- unless Panasonic intros a surprise -- that 4K2K is going be very expensive, except for the JVC camcorder. Even the FS700, by the time you buy a 3G HD-SDI recorder, is going to about $15K.

I'm curious what folks think.

Does anyone have a use for 4k even if it's "only" $5K?

Anyone planning to buy any 4K camera?

Anyone planning to buy the JVC?

If "yes" -- why?

If "no" -- why?
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Old April 16th, 2012, 02:11 AM   #2
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Re: What's the feeling about $5K JVC vs $15K/$30K Canons

I love JVC's solution to output 4 HDMI streams, but I won't be going 4K anytime soon. Reasons:

1. Ability of 'entry-level' lenses to resolve true 4K
2. Ability of entry-level sensors to resolve true 4K
3. Cost of editing and finishing - native, intermediate or uncompressed - is high in terms of CPU and RAM required. Rendering of effects, etc is an exponentially increasing nightmare.
4. The need for high-end 4K monitors/projector systems and environments
5. By the time 4K becomes the 'standard' in the future, I feel H.264, AVCHD, etc, won't be around, and ditto for any other format save image sequences. I also feel 8K is more worthy pursuit and that 4K should be a sub-case of the UHDTV standard instead of a stop-gap spec. Most people tout 4K as a future-proof spec, but they are forgetting that their favorite codec probably won't be around after 10 years.
6. Minimal 4K penetration except in digital cinema displays. If all the majors combined couldn't make 3D a phenomenon, I doubt they'll be able to sell 4K. Most HD channels are still 720 (at least where I'm at).
7. There is no current standard for 4K media exchange or distribution, neither is there a broadcast pipeline for it.
8. If I have to go 4K and have the budgeting muscle to back it, wouldn't I shoot 35mm film and scan it?
9. Almost zero-archivability - what do I store 4K in? DVD? Blu-ray? HDCAM SR? LTO? Hard disks?? If I don't have a professional media solution to lend weight to my 'future-proof' argument, then who am I kidding? I'm not even sure what the broadcast networks are planning to do with their mountains of HDCAM and D5 tapes 20 years from now.
10. And the biggest reason of all, which is purely subjective - I don't feel 4K is 'good enough' resolution wise. Either go 8K or stick to 2K. A 2K to 4K jump is similar to 720 to 1080/2K. How many people can tell the difference with consumer or prosumer equipment?
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Old April 16th, 2012, 05:25 AM   #3
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Re: What's the feeling about $5K JVC vs $15K/$30K Canons

I've been fascinated by this small 4K camera since JVC first showed the prototype last year. The ability to shoot 4K from such a small body and at such a minimal price compared to its competitors is simply amazing. From what I've seen of the images, it's stunning. There's nothing out there even close to it.

If RED came out with this, people would be tripping over themselves babbling about the genius of Jannard at developing such a camera. After all, isn't the HMQ10 close to the original concept of the Scarlet - fixed lens camera capable of 4K? And working with an EX3 convinces me that a 1/2" chip can take amazing images.

As for who needs 4K now, I don't. But that doesn't mean I can't use a 4K image to my advantage. I've always believed in starting out with the best image that you can get, then work with it down the production chain. And it doesn't get any better than 4K.
I don't know how it will fit into existing editing systems. I guess we'll find out as the camera gets into general circulation.

So, count me as one who is very interested in this product. Even the standard HD mode will be enough for my clients.
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Old April 16th, 2012, 08:28 PM   #4
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Re: What's the feeling about $5K JVC vs $15K/$30K Canons

JVC's 4K for $5k seems to have a pricing problem -- and a marketing problem. A 2.5K camera may be far more useful in our FullHD world.

So now BlackMagic introduces a 2.5K camera for about $3K. Then there is the Digital Bolex for about $3K. And the KineRAW S8 for about -- perhaps -- $2K.

Blackmagic Design: Blackmagic Cinema Camera

Blackmagic Cinema Camera – Let’s take it from the top | johnbrawley

I've been working with CinemaDNG in AE and Premiere and Resolve. An alternative to JVC's Quad HD solution.
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Old April 16th, 2012, 10:25 PM   #5
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Re: What's the feeling about $5K JVC vs $15K/$30K Canons

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Mullen View Post
So now BlackMagic introduces a 2.5K camera for about $3K. ..
I've been working with CinemaDNG in AE and Premiere and Resolve. An alternative to JVC's Quad HD solution.
The Blackmagic camera is a beauty to behold, and I guess it ticks all the right boxes, except audio and form factor. At that price point it if delivers it has got to be a winner.

How different is CinemaDNG from DNG? Is it a form of compressed or pseudo-RAW like Red's, or is it an honest-to-got RAW like Arriraw?
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Old April 17th, 2012, 03:13 AM   #6
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Re: What's the feeling about $5K JVC vs $15K/$30K Canons

Honest to god RAW. It's amazing fun to define your own gamma CURVE.

In AE I export ProRes 4444 (no alpha) at 12-bits.

Having said this, the ability to define your OWN camera does take extra work which many of us my find we would never be paid for. This is why the ProRes/DNxHD options set the BM apart from the DigitalBolex and the KineRAW.

But, I must confess I'm looking at $200 Bolex cameras that will let me shoot real film. Film can be processed, telecined, corrected with a DeVinci, and returned on a harddrive in ProRes 422.

Chris, is there a place for film-to-video work here?
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Old August 6th, 2012, 04:13 AM   #7
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Re: What's the feeling about $5K JVC vs $15K/$30K Canons

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sareesh Sudhakaran View Post
By the time 4K becomes the 'standard' in the future, I feel H.264, AVCHD, etc, won't be around, and ditto for any other format save image sequences.
Mpeg2 was developed around 1991 and standardized in 1996. It is the main codec on the newly announced JVC HM600/650 camcorders, the Canon XF100/300 series, the Sony EX1/3 and the newly announced Sony PMW-200. Mpeg 4 AVC also known as H264 was developed and standardized more recently. Given that the development of new video codecs has been greatly slowed by software patents and litigation, I don't expect anything to replace H264 for at least 20 years. In particular, the native format for the 4K video produced by the JVC GY-HMQ10U should be playable without any special conversion for a long time.
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