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Old August 14th, 2003, 11:55 AM   #1
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Dubs w/ timecode (new topic)

How can you make a dub of a miniDV tape that preserves the timecode of the original?

The idea is to have 2 copies of each reel/tape; batch capture at low-res for "offline" editing in FCP; then re-capture the final EDL at high-res, having a backup tape for each copy just in case.

I come from a background in audio, so it seems to make sense that two vtr devices can synch to do this, yet I've been told that this can only be done expensively through mastering houses.

BTW, I searched the board for about 20 minutes and was unable to find an answer to this. Please direct me to the proper thread if it's out there.

Thanks!

-Scot


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Old August 14th, 2003, 02:34 PM   #2
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This type of TC operation is called cloning. If you search clone or cloning you would find some threads. Basically, consumer and most (all?) Prosumer cameras do not all for cloning. Some prosumer and pro DV decks allow you to clone. I listed several model numbers in a recent post.
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Old August 15th, 2003, 10:02 AM   #3
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cloning

Thanks, Jeff.

I searched through the forum for your posts and for the words clone OR cloning and couldn't find any such list of devices.

I know the Sony DSR30 can do it... but I can't afford a $3,200+ VTR.

Renting one may not be an option, as I'll be in Cambodia for the majority of my shoot. Any workarounds you might see for the objective written below? Again, I'm an audio guy, and this seems to be something that devices can do at below prosumer levels. But hey! What do I know? I'm just an audio guy.

> The idea is to have 2 copies of each
> reel/tape; batch capture at low-res for
> "offline" editing in FCP; then re-capture
> the final EDL at high-res, having a
> backup tape for each copy just in case.

-S
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Old August 15th, 2003, 10:42 AM   #4
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There are no work arounds. The cameras and decks must support this feature. Panasonic and Sony have some relatively low cost decks, but you're still talking over $1,000. If you're in a major city, you might try renting, or see if a cloning service is available at a broadcast station or video production company.
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Old August 15th, 2003, 04:48 PM   #5
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cloning

Thanks again, Jeff.

I've been looking around for info and running into walls, so I'll need to just ask you another question.

I've heard the GL2 doesn't send SMPTE. Is this true? Would it mean that I would need to in fact purchase TWO decks, one that can send the timecode and another that receives it?

Thanks.

-Scot
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Old August 15th, 2003, 06:59 PM   #6
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No, mini DV cameras use DV time code. It is not SMPTE TC. DV TC can be converted to SMPTE, through the use of external convertors. But in most cases, SMPTE TC is not required. DV TC meets requirements for frame accurate editing and broadcast.

The only part you might have trouble with the backup tapes. They won't be a clone. So if anything happens to the originals, you'll have to re-edit from the backups. A pain, but at least all is not lost.
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Old August 16th, 2003, 04:50 PM   #7
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clones

Thanks again. I mispoke, I do not need to synch it to SMPTE, just from one DV device to another.

So there is no way to cheaply (i.e., under $1,000) dub clones of miniDV tapes using a GL2.

Correct?

Thanks,

Scot
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Old August 16th, 2003, 05:39 PM   #8
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Maybe all you really need is a copy and not a clone. A clone would have all the TC breaks and would match exactly. Copies have continuous TC, repairing any breaks, but can not be referenced back to the original. DV TC in the GL2 always starts at 00:00:00;00. It always starts in zero if the pauses do not start again in valid TC. If it doesn't start in a valid TC, the TC starts again at zero.

If you want to batch digitize a tape with broken TC, either name each break as a new tape and manually set the tape for each clip being digitized. You can also copy the tape (with the broken TC) and the copy will have unbroken TC.

I know of no decks under $1,000 that will make a clone.
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Old August 16th, 2003, 07:01 PM   #9
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This seems a little paranoid to me and a unnecessary waste of time/money. Your tapes will be fine as long as you hit the erase-protect tab. Mini-DV tapes are more than robust enough to handle 2 captures. If you are using a tower to edit, why not add additional hard drive space and capture at online quality? You will then have 2 copies of your footage- one on the tape and one on the computer. If not, check out the tutorial for offlining with FCP over at ken stone's final cut pro webpage. http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/fcp_homepage_index.html

You can copy mini-DV tapes by hooking 2 consumer cameras (or DV decks) with a 4pin-4pin Firewire cable. There is no generation loss when copying over firewire.
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Old August 16th, 2003, 08:04 PM   #10
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cloning

Thanks, Glenn, I'll definitely check out that link.

I'll be living in Cambodia for 4 months during the rainy season into the hot season. On the flight back, I'll be on 3 different airlines (thai airways connecting to singapore connecting to united).

Lots of room for error (lost/stolen/damage).

I'll probably just capture the select reel to hard drive and then export THAT to miniDV for backup.

I'm just attached to this idea, and am in complete denial of how expensive/inconvenient it is. I also hate harddrives and trust them less than I can throw them, which I've felt like doing on more than one occasion.

Any more/other ideas are still very much welcome!

Thanks,

Scot
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Old August 16th, 2003, 08:47 PM   #11
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The same timecode would be useful for re-capturing, but you could recreate your project (painfully) with copies of the originals. However, if you have copies without duplicate timecode and your originals get damaged, you could just work off the copies and you'd be ok. They are both the exact same quality (assuming you have no dropouts).

If you capture into Final Cut Pro you can make copies of the originals that all have the same timecode.
Capture into FCP
trim away media if necessary
add stuff at the beginning and end if you like (slate, bars and tone, whatever else is useful) (can be done using print to video or edit to tape)
print to video or do an assemble edit onto a blank mini-DV tape. If there is no timecode on that tape, the footage will start at 00:00:00:00. Any other dubs will also be like that. You should be able to lose one of the copies and use the other to recapture. You should test it out first.

Making lots of copies will put extra wear and tear on the camera's heads. If you are going to accumulate over 100hours of use then there are some things to consider (cleaning, getting a DV deck).
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Old August 16th, 2003, 11:56 PM   #12
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clones

Thanks, Glenn. That does sound like a lot of extra work on the heads. As long as I'm capturing at full res I might as well keep it on the hard drive.

I'm bringing a backup camera that I'll use as the deck (a Canon z70), only using the GL2 to record.

Someone warned that the z70 records at a different frame rate than the GL2. Huh?!?!? Is this true? Sounds like poppycock to me.
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Old August 17th, 2003, 08:26 AM   #13
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Z70 and GL2 have the frame rate of their respective standards. If NTSC, 29.97 fps and if PAL 25 fps.
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Old August 17th, 2003, 03:48 PM   #14
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They (might) record audio at slightly different rates. Canon cameras can be off by around 0.009mhz (48.000mhz is perfect). I don't think playback or capturing will be a problem between the two cameras.
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