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-   -   VCR for duplication (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/long-black-line/2365-vcr-duplication.html)

Dylan Couper June 12th, 2002 09:27 PM

VCR for duplication
 
I'd like some advice on which VHS VCR to buy. I'm going to be doing VHS duplication with one, then five, then maybe ten VCRs.

Pro quality stuff is out of my price range. I'm looking to spend less than $200 each, preferably $100 or so.

Should I use the same type of VCR for my player? Or should I purchase a S-VHS VCR ($150 brand new now!) so I have at least one more generation with higher quality. Or what about buying a miniDV camcorder with DV-in and using it as a player deck? Granted its a lot more $$ but I wouldn't mind a second camera.

Dumb question but can a S-VHS record a regular VHS tape, and if so, will it be a higher quality picture than a regular tape when played back on a normal VCR? I don't think so, just asking.

For now all I'm doing is going to be copying miniDV from my XL1 to VHS (or SVHS, miniDV decks are still too much $$), then making some duplicates. Eventually, I'll be outputing from my computer to miniDV, then duplicating off that, but it's still a ways off.

When I want to use 5 VCRs I guess I'll need a signal booster of some sorts, any reccomendations for that would be appreciated too.

Thanks!

Ken Tanaka June 12th, 2002 09:42 PM

I'm confused about your plans, but no matter. I'm also not sure that your budget is realistic, or that you really want to get into tape duplication; it's not quite as simple as it may seem. But also no matter.

Take a look at http://www.elitevideo.com/ . They feature several duplication equipment configurations.

Dylan Couper June 12th, 2002 10:21 PM

I'm just basically looking for which consummer VCR will give me the best picture and sound quality when recording from another VCR. I need to make 5-10 copies of a few small events I am shooting. Eventually I will need between 20-100.

There's not a lot of money in it for me, so having them professionaly copied is not an option.

I've been to elitevideo.com before and tried to find out what model of Panasonic VCR they used (which for $129 is well under my budget), but gave up on them because their e-mail page wouldn't load. It works now, I just e-mailed them. Their 8 deck system looks appealing, but I just need one for now.

Oh, you are right, I DON'T want to get into duplication. :)
But, it's my only choice compared to getting it professionaly done and giving up 30% of my profits. I know there is a lot more to it when getting into larger duplication jobs, but I am trying to learn as much as possible before I need to make any more than a copy at a time.
So far, a turnkey system looks pretty appealing.

Frank Granovski June 13th, 2002 04:15 AM

If you plan to duplicate VHS from VHS, get 2 cheap VCRs with good warranties. Then use them like crazy, and if 1 or both of them break, get them fixed or replaced via the warranty. If it's a cheap VCR, the store will usually replace the unit rather than sending it out for service.

Get 4 head VCRs not 2 head.

If you want to dupicate, the better way is to have 1 S-video VCR for playing, and 1 VHS VCR for recording.

If you had a deck, you could copy from it straight to the VCR. That would be best, though the deck will cost you lots of bucks.

Vic Owen June 13th, 2002 09:27 PM

A SVHS deck might provide a better VHS recording due to higher quality circuitry, but it's probably not worth buying one just for that purpose. If you use a SVHS deck (or better) for your master, you'll get better dupes. Don't daisy chain VHS decks, though. After a couple of decks, the quality falls off rapidly. Best to use a distribution amp (might look into borrowing/renting one).

It doesn't take many dupes to pay for a VHS deck. Any in the $100 range will work fine. They won't last as long as a commercial unit, but they're cheap to replace.

When doing projects, I frequently make the dubs directly from the computer through a DV deck feeding the DA. Then I archive onto either SVHS or full size DV tapes, depending on future use.

There are lots of options for doing this -- hope I covered some of them that you can use. Just remember, VHS at its best is still lousy!

Jeff Donald June 14th, 2002 08:48 PM

Hi,

If you start making more than a copy or two consider getting a Time Base Corrector (TBC). A full frame TBC will do more for improving your picture quality than any other accesory, or type of VCR. You can probably get one fairly cheap on ebay.

Jeff

Frank Granovski June 15th, 2002 01:15 AM

I do a lot of video duplication. Like anywhere from 5 to 50 per week. I make one master from cam to S-video. Then I make VHS copies from the S-video VCR. I also find that you can skip the S-video VCR, and just use 2 cheap VCRs with results not much worse than from using a S-video VCR. Of course, you can spend a whole lot more for a slight improvement, but is it worth it? I say, no---unless you're going to make 1000s of copies each month. If this is the case, go with a duplication lab.

Dylan Couper June 15th, 2002 02:29 PM

Frank, do you mean that you can skip using the S-video VCR as a master and a cheap VHS master will give the same results?

A&B Sound has a SVHS VCR for $199cdn, about $60 more than I was going to spend on a regular VCR.

I'd like to find a unit that doesn't go to blue if the signal gets weak.

Also, how man VCRs can I use as recorders (off a signal splitter) at the same time without a drop in noticable signal/picture quality, or without having to buy a TBC or signal amplifier?

Frank Granovski June 15th, 2002 02:57 PM

I can't answer your second question.

Regarding your 1st, I know you can get a cheap S-video VCR at places like A&B Sound. What I said, however, is that if you dupicate off of a VHS copy (made via a good digital cam) to VHS, the results will not be that much worse than from a S-video VCR to a VHS VCR. I do both, but if this fellow is concerned with $$$, like I am---I've had no complaints since I've copied this way---the content and style of shooting is more important than a slight loss of quality. But then again, this all depends the market you are targeting.

Jeff Donald June 15th, 2002 07:24 PM

The quality of the playback VCR is not that big a deal, unless your talking about mastering to S-VHS. You need to sort out how you are going to do your duplication. Are you mastering to DV, S-VHS or VHS? If your are going to master to S-VHS for better quality, then of course, you'll need an S-VHS deck to play back from. If you master to VHS, then you do not need an S-VHS deck just to play back your VHS masters. The quality improvement would be very slight.

A TBC would be your best investment for yourself and your clients. Without a TBC and a Distribution Amp (DA) I would not loop the signal through more than 2 or 3 VCRs. Do you really want to risk your reputation and your clients on lousy dupes?

I used to own a Production, Post Production, Duplication and Fullfilment company in Cincinnati. I had 350 duplicators and did jobs from 15,000 copies on down. Let me know what your going to master to and I'll help you sort your system out as best i can.

Jeff

Dylan Couper June 16th, 2002 12:12 AM

Thanks everyone for all the advice so far!

I'm going to be taping sports events for a friend (who is paying me, which makes him a client, but still gives me some leeway).

He's going to need at least 10 copies per event, maybe up to 50.
I can do this with 2 VCRs but eventually, I'd like to have 5-10 VCRs so I can get it done in an afternoon.

SVHS VCRs are almost as cheap as VHS VCRs so either one works. I figured I'd make the master on the SVHS VCR from my XL1, then use the SVHS VCR as a player deck to the VHS recording decks.

I checked Ebay, there are some time base correctors in the $75-$150 range, and distribution amplifiers from $50-$500. What should I reasonably be looking to pay?

Bradley Miller June 16th, 2002 12:41 AM

I used to do this pretty seriously several years back, so here's some tips I can pass along to you.

Ideally you should be playing direct from a DV source (either your computer or a DV camera or DV deck). If this is not a possibility, then consider mastering to S-VHS. However this is going through an unnecessary generation and your tapes mastered on DV, copied to S-VHS and then duped to VHS will not look as good as a tape mastered on DV and copied straight to VHS.

You can get away with just about one "daisy chaining" wiring. That is outputting from the playback VCR into the first recording VCR, then taking that unit's outputs and inputting them into the second recording VCR. Generally if you try and daisy chain more than 2 units together you will have some fairly serious video degredation going on, not to mention unacceptable audio compression due to the built in AGC circuits. The preferred method would be to get yourself a digital time base corrector and a distribution amp. That way you can line up a dozen machines, each with it's separate feed from the distribution amp and have equal quality copies.

If you are going to choose to play back straight from a DV source, DO get a separate tape and record the computer's output as a secondary "master", then make your VHS dupes from that. You don't want to put a lot of wear on a tape that is only going to be used temporarily for duping.

If you are going to master from DV to S-VHS and then dupe to VHS, make sure that the S-VHS deck that is to be the playback unit is the one that records the tape. You will have maximum compatibility (and quality) by following that rule. The same thing applies if you choose to master to VHS and then dupe that VHS tape to other VHS tapes.

Finally, get all S-VHS machines, not VHS machines. They allow you to use S-video inputs, which separate the chrominance from the luminance and your copies will be better just by that alone. A S-VHS machine can play and record either format, and it makes better VHS tapes than a regular VHS machine can.

Try and find decks that have manual audio recording level controls. The AGC circuit can really destroy a carefully crafted audio mix. Also, most decks with automatic gain control circuits tend to record one channel noticeably louder than the other, resulting in unbalanced sound and incorrect Pro Logic steering (assuming you mixed for this).

Definitely get a "4 head" machine, BUT (and it's a big but) make absolutely sure that you are getting "4 video heads" and not in all actuality a 2 video head + 2 HiFi audio head machine, or you are in essence using the narrower set of heads designed for EP/SLP recording when you make the dupes in SP mode. A deck with only 2 video heads will result in a copy with more noise in the image and the tapes will not play well on decks that truly have 4 video heads. You will probably have to get the manual and look at the spec sheet to make sure your machines actually have 4 video heads. I don't think there is such a thing as a S-VHS machine that does not have HiFi audio, and you should not even consider using a VHS machine that doesn't have it. However, just for clarification, your machine should actually have 6 heads on the drum (4 for video, 2 for HiFi audio). The spec sheet will show this.

And of course, ALWAYS record on "SP" speed, no exceptions.

Dylan Couper June 16th, 2002 07:50 PM

Great info, thanks!

What do you think of this VCR for duplication purposes? It's used by elitevideo in their turnkey duplication systems.

http://www.elitevideo.com/online-store/scstore/p-94.html

That's what I had planned on using, but I will do some research into what 6 head SVHS VCRs are priced at.
Are SVHS decks worth double the price of a VHS deck for still only recording in VHS mode?

I will get a DV deck somewhere down the road, but it's still a while off. I think I will go with the SVHS master for now.

Bradley Miller June 17th, 2002 01:39 AM

That looks like a run of the mill machine to me. Fortunately Panasonic (at least to my knowledge) doesn't pull the "4 head" thing while counting the HiFi heads, so that machine would probably be decent. However there are no manual audio gain controls and you can almost bet the levels will be off balance on the copies. Also except for a brief period of a couple of years, Matsushita makes their machines and makes a pretty good product.

To answer your other question, yes I do think S-VHS machines record a better VHS image than a regular VHS machine. Is it worth double the cost? Well, how important are your dupes to you? And would you be willing to run dupes say 10 times instead of 5 times by purchasing half as many decks for better quality?

More food for thought, if I had a budget to purchase 20 of these machines, I would opt for 10 S-VHS decks spending the same amount of money and just run the tape twice as many times to get the end result quantity of dupes. However, you would be better off buying say 5 S-VHS decks and one MiniDV deck and running the dupes 4 times over if quality is of utmost importance to you. If quantity must factor in there, you would still be better off buying say 10 regular VHS decks and that one MiniDV deck for playback. At least that's what I would do.

Jeff Donald June 17th, 2002 05:06 PM

I have not seen the benefit of using S-VHS decks as duplicators for VHS tapes. I would use VHS decks as duplicators. The Panasonic decks would seem to be a good choice as long as they have HI-FI audio (which I beleive they do). Use either a miniDV deck or S-VHS deck as your source deck. The signal out of the source deck should go into a full frame TBC. The TBC will regenerate sync, fix dropouts and adjust black level etc. The signal out of the TBC should go to a DA, the DA will split the signal in 5 or maybe 10 equal signals to go to your VHS duplicators. As you add decks add more DA's. As your budget permits add audio DA's and start thinking about pro duplicators. Rebuilt units can be purchased on ebay for $250 or so.

Jeff

Joe Redifer June 17th, 2002 06:43 PM

To my knowledge, all MiniDV source content is time base corrected by nature of the format. No need to send it through another TBC. However definitely use a TBC when outputting from S-VHS or VHS or any other analog format.

Jeff Donald June 17th, 2002 07:02 PM

Good point. The TBC would also give him the ability to adjust Black level to 7.5 ire and fade in and fade out, adjust color etc with the proc amp. The cost of the S-VHS deck and the TBC might get him a cheap DV camera to use as a source deck. It's a tough call.

Jeff

Dylan Couper June 18th, 2002 02:12 PM

OK, I haven't decided on S-VHS vs. VHS for recording decks, anyone else have an opinion on this?

Getting a miniDV camera to use as a source deck is a pretty good idea. I will compare the prices.

Also, how much should I look to spend on a TBC and DA and what basic featuers should they have?

And finally, whether I use SVHS or VHS decks, does it matter if they are different brands/models, or should I make sure they are all the same?

Thanks!

Bradley Miller June 19th, 2002 01:26 AM

Playing back from MiniDV without the TBC is still better than mastering to S-VHS with a TBC. If you go with more than a couple of recorders, you will want a DA no matter what format you play from and record to.

As an example...have you ever made a VHS dupe of a MiniDV tape, just interconnecting the audio/video cables directly? Well, considering S-VHS decks allow you to use S cables, you've already got an improvement over the straight dubs you have probably already made. Copying your MiniDV to S-VHS and then to VHS is just bringing about an unnecessary analog generational loss.

I would personally keep all recording decks the same model, but it's not necessary. It just helps because all of the hookups and setup options will be exactly the same, plus you can stand several feet back from your stack or recording VCRs and hit record on the remote. :)

By the way, I have found Mitsubishi currently makes the highest quality S-VHS decks, with Panasonic being second place and then things tend to fall hit and miss from there.

Joe Redifer June 19th, 2002 02:01 AM

Problem with Panasonic is that they do not seem to believe in flying erase heads, and I cannot live without flying erase heads. Even on blank tapes I still find that they make some difference.

I'm not sure, but does the standard VHS format record chrominance and luminance separately on the tape? I know S-VHS does.

Jeff Donald June 19th, 2002 02:41 PM

No, Y/C is not seperate in NTSC (VHS). How would a flying erase head have an effect on a blank tape? I'm under the impression they work only in insert edits.

Jeff

Joe Redifer June 20th, 2002 12:03 AM

When you are recording and you pause and then resume recording, you will sometimes see a quick rainbow effect simply because the VCR backs itself up a bit when paused. Plus, a friend of mine has a VCR without a flying erase head (poor bastard) and he uses a blank tape to record stuff we do. Each time we'll add about 3 or 4 minutes to the tape until we do another production, then we'll add more. At the point of each and every new recording there is that stupid unprofessional looking rainbow effect that is slight, but it is still there. Of course if you have a tape with prerecorded material on it you get a massive rainbow effect.

Insert edits are evil because you lose the HiFi audio. Who'd want that? Linear audio is completely unacceptable. I've always worked around that because I #1) don't want to lose the HiFi audio and #2) don't want to lose a video generation by dubbing down to keep the HiFi audio. Analog editing sucks ass with consumer equipment! I will never even think of attempting it again!

Bradley Miller June 20th, 2002 03:53 AM

That rainbow "candy cane" is actually called video moire and is what happens when helical scanning video heads lay down a signal OVER an existing signal. Since the stationary erase head in a VHS machine is an inch or two before the tape gets to the video heads, if you take a tape with video on it, pause it and then start recording, the moire will slowly dance down the screen until the part of the tape that starts at the stationary head gets to the video heads. This is why the moire moves down the screen faster in SP then EP/SLP speed, because the tape is moving faster in SP. Also, some machines place the stationary erase head closer to the video drum, making the effect quicker. This is also why when you record over a tape and then stop recording, the playback shows clean video until the point where you stopped, a pause of pure blank tape, then the blank tape rolls downward like the moire to reveal the old picture. Not even flying erase heads can fix that, except in "insert mode", which of course cannot record HiFi audio tracks. (I strongly agree with Joe of the importance in laying down the audio on the HiFi tracks! Linear VHS audio is incredibly bad, even the older twin track machines with Dolby B noise reduction were terrible.)

But getting back to the point, the only way to eliminate the moire is one of two ways. First there is the flying erase head. (It's actually only one erase head with a dummy head for balance.) Since they are mounted on the same drum with the video heads, it erases each frame one frame before it has new video laid down. (Don't ask me about fields, as I don't know *exactly* how that aspect works.)

The second option is just to use brand new blank tape, or tape that has been erased with a bulk eraser. Since everyone here edits their programs non-linear, VHS machines are really only needed for duping the edited productions to tape for distribution. With that being the case, a VCR with flying erase heads will only offer one advantage...you can use old tape and never worry about having the "candy cane" dance down the screen for the first several seconds of the recording. Past that, the quality is not affected. (By the way, a bulk eraser is available at Radio Shack for about $20. Just get your watch and any other important magnetic items away from the area you are going to erase tapes at!)

Joe Redifer June 20th, 2002 11:31 AM

Yes a VCR without flying erase heads will work fine just as long as you record the ENTIRE tape in one shot without any pausing or stopping of the tape in any fashion. Beyond that you are screwed.


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