Trying to learn my lessons at DVinfo.net

Ryan P. Green · December 3rd, 2004, 08:35 PM

Recently, I shot the musical at my high school. I used the school's XL1 and two XL1s' (dont know how they could afford them. MTV came to our school recently and we had better equipment than them.) I shot all three nights to be safe, and when i was reviewing footage i was finding that so much was worthless. I was recording in LP mode the entire time, but on 10 out of the 18 tapes it was all blocky and useless. I was dumping using a high-end sony DV deck (don't remember which one, all I know is that it supports both DV and DVCAM), and the 8 out of the 18 looked fine. I tested the others on the XL1's, and they were useless. I ensured that my crew packed their tapes, but it looks like that didn't help in all situations. Is it possible that dropping them could cause me to need to re-pack the tapes?

Dave Perry · December 4th, 2004, 01:50 AM

Ryan,

Your problem is that you chose LP instead of the standard SP. The only reason to ever use LP mode is if you will never use the footage for anything other than a home movie and don't plan to edit it in an NLE. The extra 30 minutes of record time is not worth the low quality in which it records.

Lesson learned :)

Ryan P. Green · December 4th, 2004, 07:46 AM

from what i've heard, and seen, LP in DV gives you exactly the same quality as SP. I had no problems in FCP with my footage (other than the problems importing. Next time i'll check out a Canon camera to dump my stuff in

Jimmy McKenzie · December 4th, 2004, 09:15 AM

Sp and LP record the same dv25 stream to tape. The problem is that the tape is moving slower so there is less tape area to write the image. Hence the blocky, oversized pixelation you are encountering. LP is like digital zoom, photo capture and other features that populate the feature sheets for these products. Makes for nice copy on the long list of "features" but is of no benefit and should be avoided.

Dave Perry · December 4th, 2004, 09:20 AM

What he said, also when dropouts occur in LP mode, there is more data that is dropped out.

Tom Voigt · December 9th, 2004, 12:40 AM

In Ryan's defense, he was probably using LP mode because Act I was 75 minutes long.......

So do you use LP mode on a 60 minute tape, or an 80 minute tape? My preference is LP mode and the 60 minute tape.

So what do you do when Act I is 105 minutes long?? Yes, LP mode and an 80 minute tape. I do know my JVC deck doesn't like that at all. I used a little Canon Optura for capture.

But if you are getting large number of dropouts, something is wrong. What I don't know.

The other lesson to be learned is try and review (or better yet, capture) footage each day on a multi-day shoot.

Glenn Chan · December 9th, 2004, 11:14 AM

Try using the camera used to record the tape to capture?

Cosmin Rotaru · December 9th, 2004, 12:02 PM

Glenn Chan beat me to it! I was going to suggest the same thing: use the same camera for playback that you used for shooting. LP is not as "solid" as SP in terms of tape speed. So, what is recorded on one system, might be useless on another.

Mark Whittle · December 17th, 2004, 09:01 PM

I think you will also find that if the "high end Sony DV deck" that was used to capture was a DVCAM unit, it does not support DV in LP mode.

My DSR-11 often plays my XL1s tapes with dropouts that aren't recorded dropouts. I often have to injest with the XL1s to get clean playback. I assume it is a tracking issue.

As previously mentioned, LP is best avoided altogether if you expect fault free playback, except on the camera it was recorded on, and even then its touch & go.

If you use XL1s for long events, why not take your DVCAM deck on the shoot, buy a 276 minute or 186 minute standard DV tape and connect via firewire to your camera using the DV control feature. The deck will start and stop with the camera. You can have a tape in the camera as a backup (recommended) or no tape at all.

If you don't own a DV deck, grab another camera. As long as it has 1394 IN, you can overlap record so as your XL1 tape is about to run out, start recording on the other cam. Its pretty easy to join together in your NLE afterward.

Obviously ensure the 2nd cam is set to VTR not camera and if you're using a DV deck, make sure the signal is getting onto tape. I once used my DSR-11 to record 4 hours of nothing because the INPUT SELECT switch on the front was set to S-VIDEO, not DV. Lucky I was rolling tape in the camera as well!

My solution for 2005 is to buy a Firestore FS-4.

December 3rd, 2004, 08:35 PM	#1
Ryan P. Green Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: USA Posts: 35	Trying to learn my lessons Recently, I shot the musical at my high school. I used the school's XL1 and two XL1s' (dont know how they could afford them. MTV came to our school recently and we had better equipment than them.) I shot all three nights to be safe, and when i was reviewing footage i was finding that so much was worthless. I was recording in LP mode the entire time, but on 10 out of the 18 tapes it was all blocky and useless. I was dumping using a high-end sony DV deck (don't remember which one, all I know is that it supports both DV and DVCAM), and the 8 out of the 18 looked fine. I tested the others on the XL1's, and they were useless. I ensured that my crew packed their tapes, but it looks like that didn't help in all situations. Is it possible that dropping them could cause me to need to re-pack the tapes?

December 4th, 2004, 01:50 AM	#2
Dave Perry Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Roanoke, VA Posts: 796	Ryan, Your problem is that you chose LP instead of the standard SP. The only reason to ever use LP mode is if you will never use the footage for anything other than a home movie and don't plan to edit it in an NLE. The extra 30 minutes of record time is not worth the low quality in which it records. Lesson learned :) __________________ Dave Perry Cinematographer LLC Director of Photography • Editor • Digital Film Production • 540.915.2752 • daveperry.net

December 4th, 2004, 09:15 AM	#4
Jimmy McKenzie Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Waterloo Ontario Posts: 721	lp is fragile at best Sp and LP record the same dv25 stream to tape. The problem is that the tape is moving slower so there is less tape area to write the image. Hence the blocky, oversized pixelation you are encountering. LP is like digital zoom, photo capture and other features that populate the feature sheets for these products. Makes for nice copy on the long list of "features" but is of no benefit and should be avoided.

December 4th, 2004, 09:20 AM	#5
Dave Perry Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Roanoke, VA Posts: 796	What he said, also when dropouts occur in LP mode, there is more data that is dropped out. __________________ Dave Perry Cinematographer LLC Director of Photography • Editor • Digital Film Production • 540.915.2752 • daveperry.net

December 9th, 2004, 12:02 PM	#8
Cosmin Rotaru Major Player Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Romania, Timisoara Posts: 453	Glenn Chan beat me to it! I was going to suggest the same thing: use the same camera for playback that you used for shooting. LP is not as "solid" as SP in terms of tape speed. So, what is recorded on one system, might be useless on another. __________________ Cosmin Rotaru

December 4th, 2004, 07:46 AM	#3
Ryan P. Green Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: USA Posts: 35	from what i've heard, and seen, LP in DV gives you exactly the same quality as SP. I had no problems in FCP with my footage (other than the problems importing. Next time i'll check out a Canon camera to dump my stuff in

December 9th, 2004, 12:40 AM	#6
Tom Voigt Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 92	In Ryan's defense, he was probably using LP mode because Act I was 75 minutes long....... So do you use LP mode on a 60 minute tape, or an 80 minute tape? My preference is LP mode and the 60 minute tape. So what do you do when Act I is 105 minutes long?? Yes, LP mode and an 80 minute tape. I do know my JVC deck doesn't like that at all. I used a little Canon Optura for capture. But if you are getting large number of dropouts, something is wrong. What I don't know. The other lesson to be learned is try and review (or better yet, capture) footage each day on a multi-day shoot.

December 9th, 2004, 11:14 AM	#7
Glenn Chan Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 4,750	Try using the camera used to record the tape to capture?

December 17th, 2004, 09:01 PM	#9
Mark Whittle Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Bunbury, Western Australia Posts: 153	I think you will also find that if the "high end Sony DV deck" that was used to capture was a DVCAM unit, it does not support DV in LP mode. My DSR-11 often plays my XL1s tapes with dropouts that aren't recorded dropouts. I often have to injest with the XL1s to get clean playback. I assume it is a tracking issue. As previously mentioned, LP is best avoided altogether if you expect fault free playback, except on the camera it was recorded on, and even then its touch & go. If you use XL1s for long events, why not take your DVCAM deck on the shoot, buy a 276 minute or 186 minute standard DV tape and connect via firewire to your camera using the DV control feature. The deck will start and stop with the camera. You can have a tape in the camera as a backup (recommended) or no tape at all. If you don't own a DV deck, grab another camera. As long as it has 1394 IN, you can overlap record so as your XL1 tape is about to run out, start recording on the other cam. Its pretty easy to join together in your NLE afterward. Obviously ensure the 2nd cam is set to VTR not camera and if you're using a DV deck, make sure the signal is getting onto tape. I once used my DSR-11 to record 4 hours of nothing because the INPUT SELECT switch on the front was set to S-VIDEO, not DV. Lucky I was rolling tape in the camera as well! My solution for 2005 is to buy a Firestore FS-4. __________________ MW