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Old June 24th, 2005, 01:12 AM   #16
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If it's well transferred, it'll look just fine.

Bad 80s video? What exactly do you mean by that? I've seen excellent work shot on SP, and some pretty ordinary DVCAM/DVCPRO results. As you say, "you are what you shoot", and if you can't get decent results with a professional broadcast format like Betacam SP, then perhaps the camera isn't your problem....
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Old June 24th, 2005, 09:09 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony Marotti
I like SP for the 4:2:2 color space and the units are generally built for rugged use, very good quality. DVCAM is great depending on the camera, but it is 4:1:1 color space.
But BetaSP is not 4:2:2! Whatever gave you the idea that it was? Digital Betacam is most definately 4:2:2, but BetaSP, being an analogue format does not immediately get a x:y:z designation. However, if you take a careful look at SP, it has about 3/4 the luma rezolution of the digital standard def formats, and it's chroma resolution is about half way between that of DV and Digital Betacam, so if you really wanted an x:y:z for BetaSP, I'd say it was 3:1.5:1.5

To answer Hamad's question, not matter what format you shoot on, producing a master on BetaSP will look worse. It's not the best of tape formats and modern digital formats offer many benefits. If you shoot on DigitalBetacam, which is currently the best looking standard def tape format, and master to BetaSP you're going to loose a lot of detail. Similarly, if you shoot on DVCAM, which is already compressed, mastering to BetaSP means you're going to mix in strong analogue compression with the digital compression, producing an image that's the worst of both worlds. That applies the other way around too, that if you shoot BetaSP, you'd want to capture and edit uncompressed and master to DigiBeta to limit mixing analogue and digital compression.

Shooting DVCAM, I'd master to DVCAM or DigitalBetacam if possible, if you want to maintain the quality you started with.

http://www.nattress.com/Chroma_Inves...masampling.htm

Will show graphically how BetaSP and DVCAM compare.

Graeme
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Old June 24th, 2005, 10:38 AM   #18
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Do yourself a favor and shoot your TV program with a Sony Betacam SP D600WS camcorder and master it if you can on Digital Betacam. That is really the way to go. If a Digibeta deck is not available for post, a BVW series Betacam SP deck is also excellent.

The D600 is probably one of the very best Beta SP camera ever manufactured. It is better than a DSR-500 or DSR-570, the most common and well known DVcam cameras. Yes! If not ask any TV station producer in the U.S. or around the world. If you have the money, shoot it on DigiBeta or HDcam, but since you said you dont', so just use that old, extremely high quality Betacam SP camera (Sony D600WS) and you will be fine. Trust me !

Many programs shot on television around the world are shot with the D600 anyways. And believe it or not, despite the popularity of DVcam, the Betacam SP format still remains king in the production world despite its slow erosion. I shoot quite a lot on DVcam but I am not convinced for its quality when I put it side to side to a D600. By the way, the D600 althought it records on analog format, the camera section is all digital signal processing. And about the dropout issue, having shot extensively on Betacam SP, I can tell you, you will really not have any problem with that - if you use the BVW Beta SP decks which deliver pristine quality with excellent drop out error free compensation, in other words, you will not see any dropout. . And don't trust numbers, trust what your eyes see. The D600WS is the way to go.

With one exception: If you could rent a Panasonic SDX-900, a DVC-Pro 50 camera, that maybe another option if you really want to shoot on digital. It is the camera to shoot for high end standard definition and you can play the footage shot with this camera on a DVcam deck. With its silky looking film like images, it would make anyone forget about Betacam SP. It also transfers well to HD.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamad Abdulla
Hi

I was just wondering, to shoot a television serial drama and if given the choice what format would you choose DVCAM or Betacam SP? I am limited between these two choices and to be honest not too sure which to go with and why, so if someone can help me out... And which models of cameras should I choose for either? Basically what's the difference in quality between both?

Cheers...

Last edited by Augusto Manuel; June 24th, 2005 at 09:41 PM.
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Old June 24th, 2005, 11:40 PM   #19
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In this case you are talking bananas !!!! I will never take any footage shot with a DSR 570 DVcam camera instead of a Sony D600WS, no matter how good the numbers look good on paper for DV. Those chips on the 600 are far superior than the 570 industrial chips that Sony puts on that middle of the road DVcam camera. Plus the lenses that go with the 600 are much better than the lenses that come with 500 or 570s.

And I am not comparing oranges and apples. I am talking about the whole enchilada. That is the way i see it.



It is not just the format specs. It is the quality of the chips and electronics inside the camera that matters.

[QUOTE=Graeme Nattress]But BetaSP is not 4:2:2! Whatever gave you the idea that it was? Digital Betacam is most definately 4:2:2, but BetaSP, being an analogue format does not immediately get a x:y:z designation. However, if you take a careful look at SP, it has about 3/4 the luma rezolution of the digital standard def formats, and it's chroma resolution is about half way between that of DV and Digital Betacam, so if you really wanted an x:y:z for BetaSP, I'd say it was 3:1.5:1.5

Last edited by Augusto Manuel; June 25th, 2005 at 09:49 AM.
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Old June 25th, 2005, 04:13 AM   #20
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Lenses that come with the 500 and 570?? I think you'll find that the lenses on both the D600 and those on the 570 are the same since you have to buy them seperately!
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Old June 25th, 2005, 07:35 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alessandro Machi
Bad 80's video clips?

What kind of experience do you have being around BetaCam SP?
I produce/edit/shoot TVC's with SP for a living.

Yes you can get some good looks out of it, but not without a fair bit of Post work IMO.

ALso on a proffesional level, these Days SP has an "oh... shooting on betacam sp" feel where as DVCAM, on like a DSR300(? nt entirely sure)
would seem a lot more acceptable to some trendy type producers


Cheers,
Ben Gurvich
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Old June 25th, 2005, 09:24 AM   #22
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Nope! Usually the lenses that come with the 570s I rent here are cheaper lenses. 600s always come with broadcast type lenses. I know they are detachable, of course. And many house rentals that offer the 570 for rent don't stock the more expensive lenses. Even owners who buy 570s endup buying the cheaper lenses. And it is not just the lens I am talking about. Instead, who would dare to put a $3,000 lens on a 600.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Wyndham
Lenses that come with the 500 and 570?? I think you'll find that the lenses on both the D600 and those on the 570 are the same since you have to buy them seperately!

Last edited by Augusto Manuel; June 25th, 2005 at 09:44 AM.
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Old June 25th, 2005, 09:35 AM   #23
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There is a difference shooting Betacam SP with a D35 and a D600. A PVW-D35 is equivalent to a DSR-500 and even a 570. Even a PVW-D50 is similar also. Jump to a D600WS and it is entirely a different world. Of course, if you are using just a $7,000 Betacam SP camcorder like the UVW series, it is not going to deliver the best of the BetaSP format. Remember it is the camera section that counts as much if not more than the type of format you shoot on. Up to a point of course...

Some people just think there was no life before digital. Also remember that TV stations have been using digital cameras and equipment almost since early 80s. It is just that the general public was introduced to the digital world in the late 90s (97 and on ).

And comparing a DSR-300 to a D600WS. Give me a break !!! Those are not trendy producers, those are uninformed producers who know nothing about equipment and quality and who think just because it is digital it has to be better. They would probably be happy with just digital handycams, I am sure.

And about the "Bad 80's video clips?" I would ask the same question to you again as Alessandro did? I never heard that before even in today's world.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Gurvich
I produce/edit/shoot TVC's with SP for a living.

Yes you can get some good looks out of it, but not without a fair bit of Post work IMO.

ALso on a proffesional level, these Days SP has an "oh... shooting on betacam sp" feel where as DVCAM, on like a DSR300(? nt entirely sure)
would seem a lot more acceptable to some trendy type producers


Cheers,
Ben Gurvich

Last edited by Augusto Manuel; June 25th, 2005 at 09:57 AM.
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Old June 25th, 2005, 05:19 PM   #24
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I shoot Beta Sp at work. A lot.
It's okay, but not nearly as nice as DigiBeta. I haven't heard anyone mention the Panasonic SDX900.

http://www.cinematography.com/articles/sdx900/

I've heard nothing but glowing remarks from videographers who've seen it, and read some great reviews as well.

my 2 cents.

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Old June 25th, 2005, 05:42 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graeme Nattress in his article
no camera records 4:4:4 Y'CbCr
Wrong! Sony just released the world's first HD 4:4:4 camera for recording to HDCAM SR.

http://bssc.sel.sony.com/Broadcastan...s/hdc-f950.pdf

But it's not Y'CbCr, It's RGB. I want to know, what's the diffrence?
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Old July 10th, 2005, 09:43 PM   #26
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D35

A Sony DXCD35 or D50 camera head with a PVV3 BetaSP back, with a broadcast lens, is by no means inferior to a D600. Both have the same size chips, (theoretically the same broadcast lens) and a BetaSP VTR section. Provided that all camera settings in both units are calibrated the same way, you would not be able to tell between them side by side. Both are high-end broadcast rigs that would be far more than acceptable for any producer that desires acquistion on Betacam SP.
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Old July 11th, 2005, 01:20 AM   #27
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Wrong !!! I own a Sony DXC-D35 (PVW-D35) and I do not own a D600. However I have rented D600s several times before and find the image quality to be definitely superior to a D30, D35. Can't tell about the D50 because have not used one. It is not only the size of the chips but a lof of other factors including the manufacturing of the chips. The D35 CCDs come from the industrial division while the D600 come from the Broadcast division. And yes, the difference is quite noticeable. While I like the image of my D35, I can tell you, it does not really get to the quality of a D600. And I am using a broadcast lens on the D35. And it is not just my D35, have seen other D35s and it is the same thing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques Star
A Sony DXCD35 or D50 camera head with a PVV3 BetaSP back, with a broadcast lens, is by no means inferior to a D600. Both have the same size chips, (theoretically the same broadcast lens) and a BetaSP VTR section. Provided that all camera settings in both units are calibrated the same way, you would not be able to tell between them side by side. Both are high-end broadcast rigs that would be far more than acceptable for any producer that desires acquistion on Betacam SP.
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Old July 11th, 2005, 09:43 AM   #28
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okay okay...

You're probably right.

But, i've never had a producer say: "I don't want to shoot on a D35, I want a D600 on my set." Most, if not all are happy with a good Betacam SP unit and some nice broadcast lenses. I know tons of network shooters who have dockable units, and they work fine.

Also, about the chips. How can you be sure of what Sony or someone else tells you? I'm always skeptical, and don't trust what everyone tells me. It could be better image quality due to signal processing, such as DSP and so on...
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Old July 11th, 2005, 11:19 AM   #29
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Trust me. They are better chips and the image looks better because of that and because of the DSP among other things.

Also, I haven't had any producer who did not hire me because I had a PVW-D35 instead of a D600. But I know that some producers (the well informed and savvy about production) would not hire me because I only have a D35 and their projects demand better imagery.

I have seen the difference and it is hard to admit (because I own a D35), that the D600WS is superior in image quality. This is not to say that the image quality of the PVW-D35 is excellent and basically the same as what you get with a DSR-500 or DSR-570 (DVcam).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques Star
You're probably right.

But, i've never had a producer say: "I don't want to shoot on a D35, I want a D600 on my set." Most, if not all are happy with a good Betacam SP unit and some nice broadcast lenses. I know tons of network shooters who have dockable units, and they work fine.

Also, about the chips. How can you be sure of what Sony or someone else tells you? I'm always skeptical, and don't trust what everyone tells me. It could be better image quality due to signal processing, such as DSP and so on...
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