RIP Magnetic Tape. - Page 2 at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > The Tools of DV and HD Production > The Long Black Line

The Long Black Line
Tape, tape and more tape; and decks; HDV, DV, VHS and more.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old August 11th, 2010, 11:54 PM   #16
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia (formerly Winnipeg, Manitoba) Canada
Posts: 4,087
Remind me again what you solid state guys have to do to hand off footage to a client at the end of a day of shooting?

Tape and SS each have their strong points and their weaknesses. The way I see it today is that tape's BIGGEST weakness is it appears to be on the endangered species list!
__________________
Shaun C. Roemich Road Dog Media - Vancouver, BC - Videographer - Webcaster
www.roaddogmedia.ca Blog: http://roaddogmedia.wordpress.com/
Shaun Roemich is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 12th, 2010, 12:07 AM   #17
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 4,100
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaun Roemich View Post
Remind me again what you solid state guys have to do to hand off footage to a client at the end of a day of shooting?

Tape and SS each have their strong points and their weaknesses. The way I see it today is that tape's BIGGEST weakness is it appears to be on the endangered species list!
Depends on the client.

If it's a paying gig, I hand them them the SDHC cards if they so choose. They bought them. But usually, I am doing post, so I don't hand them anything that day. I hand them a DVD or BluRay of the footage upon request. I can buy a day's worth of SDHC for what 2 hours of full raster tape costs. And I don't need a $80k deck to record it.

Tape has been on life support since $400 consumer cameras were shooting to solid state two years ago. The writing has been on the wall for YEARS. Manufacturers have quickly abandoned offering new tape models. I think the last time I looked at B&H, the count was something like 50:1 of solid state to tape offerings.

NLEs have been embracing solid state centric workflows for years now. Even Avid has been phasing out it's tape capture workflow in favor of solid state (AMA) workflows.
__________________
DVX100, PMW-EX1, Canon 550D, FigRig, Dell Octocore, Avid MC4/5, MB Looks, RedCineX, Matrox MX02 mini, GTech RAID, Edirol R-4, Senn. G2 Evo, Countryman, Moles and Lowels.
Perrone Ford is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 12th, 2010, 01:05 AM   #18
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia (formerly Winnipeg, Manitoba) Canada
Posts: 4,087
Ok but also consider that that full raster tape (I'm assuming you're talking HDCamSR) comes with a LOT of extras, like 12 channels of 24 bit uncompressed audio, a much higher bitrate... If you want to point out one format's weaknesses, you need to point out the weaknesses of the other.

FTR, I'm not trying to be argumentative. I AM however engaging in debate. I quite respect Perrone and his positions. Even when (as it sometimes happens) we disagree.
__________________
Shaun C. Roemich Road Dog Media - Vancouver, BC - Videographer - Webcaster
www.roaddogmedia.ca Blog: http://roaddogmedia.wordpress.com/
Shaun Roemich is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 12th, 2010, 01:27 AM   #19
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 4,100
And likewise I have a deep respect for Shaun and I am too engaging in healthy debate here. This kind of discourse is sorely lacking on a lot of subjects and it's really nice to be able to hash some of this stuff out without the petty bickering that too often happens. So on that note...

Yes, HDCamSR brings a LOT to the table. The problem is that there is ZERO middle ground. If you want full raster on tape, you get to spend $75k-$85k on the deck, and my check on B&H showed $139 per hour for the tapes. There is no "bargain" 1080p tape. Contrast this with the plethora of options in solid state. Everything from $500 handycams shooting 1080p, to dedicated units like the NanoFlash (220Mbps, I-Frame 4:2:2), or the Wafian units, up to the uncompressed units from people like Codex. There is something for every budget.

So in solid state, the media is significantly cheaper, we move away from real-time capture, you save thousands or tens of thousands on a deck (and so does your client), And if you really need to handle a lot of media (say a remote documentary where you need 200hrs worth of footage storage) you can carry that in a small bag. Try doing that with tapes.

Solid state wins in nearly every category you can name for storage media. The exception might be archival suitability. But with 25GB BluRays sitting at about $1.50 in bulk pricing, that's pretty darn cheap for short term archive needs. I don't know what the long term archive solution will be for solid state. Hollywood doesn't know either, though printing to film seems to be the solution du jour at the moment along with data tape backup. My current solution is opticals rotated every 2 years. Price is right, and it's easy enough to do. Current speeds are about the same as tape, but by that point of the workflow, the pressure is off.

I went through this decision process in 2003, and couldn't find a solid reason to stay on tape. So I moved to solid state. Best decision I ever made in video. Never regretted it for even a second. Early on, I did archive finished work to full-size DV tapes, but eventually that gave way to DVDs.
__________________
DVX100, PMW-EX1, Canon 550D, FigRig, Dell Octocore, Avid MC4/5, MB Looks, RedCineX, Matrox MX02 mini, GTech RAID, Edirol R-4, Senn. G2 Evo, Countryman, Moles and Lowels.
Perrone Ford is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 12th, 2010, 06:20 AM   #20
Major Player
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 414
just a small reminder

also guys, the issue here is the small minidv tape used for JVC HDPro cameras, sorry haven't read any media release statements to know what other formats are inclusive, but we're talking about a $10 Aus tape. And I use my camera as a deck if I need to refer to the tape if my HDD capture fails. So my HD251e is rarely used as a vtr, but it's there if I need it.
And agree the prices they ask for pro vtrs is pathetic. But anything with pro added to the title adds to price, and im glad the industry is moving away from HDCam deliverables etc. With Blueray and all the rest it is antiquated. But still doesn't help us with Tape Driven cameras.
Adam Letch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 12th, 2010, 10:53 AM   #21
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Jamestown Ohio
Posts: 49
I really hope this doesn't mean they are going to quit making the tapes anytime soon. I would however like to have a sony nxcam, but with the price of the cam there is no way for me not to mention the expensive sd cards that not included with the cam itself.
Matt McMeans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 12th, 2010, 11:09 AM   #22
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 4,100
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt McMeans View Post
but with the price of the cam there is no way for me not to mention the expensive sd cards that not included with the cam itself.
SD cards cost WAY less than tape. Not sure what you mean.
__________________
DVX100, PMW-EX1, Canon 550D, FigRig, Dell Octocore, Avid MC4/5, MB Looks, RedCineX, Matrox MX02 mini, GTech RAID, Edirol R-4, Senn. G2 Evo, Countryman, Moles and Lowels.
Perrone Ford is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 12th, 2010, 11:10 AM   #23
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 2,257
Tapes from much older formats are still available, so I think we might be right for a while. Hopefully.

Andrew
Andrew Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 12th, 2010, 12:21 PM   #24
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Woodinville, WA USA
Posts: 3,464
Quote:
Originally Posted by Perrone Ford View Post
SD cards cost WAY less than tape.
There is no math in any part of the known Universe where this is true if you use them identically. Single use, archive on shelf or give to client, tape is infinitely cheaper. Multiple use over and over, although not sure why you'd do this with tape (but many people do), tape is still infinitely cheaper.

It's only when you compare hundreds of re-uses of cards to single use of tape where cards come out cheaper. But this is apples and oranges.

Not saying there aren't plenty of reasons to go tapeless, including quicker capture/transfer and fewer dropouts, but cost isn't one of them. Unless you can find 16GB SD cards for two bucks.
__________________
"It can only be attributable to human error... This sort of thing has cropped up before, and it has always been due to human error."
Adam Gold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 12th, 2010, 12:49 PM   #25
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 4,100
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Gold View Post
There is no math in any part of the known Universe where this is true if you use them identically.
Use them identically? How about if you use them as they are intended to be used? Tape get's one pass, cards get as many passes as your heart desires.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Gold View Post
Single use, archive on shelf or give to client, tape is infinitely cheaper. Multiple use over and over, although not sure why you'd do this with tape (but many people do), tape is still infinitely cheaper.
Come on now...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Gold View Post
It's only when you compare hundreds of re-uses of cards to single use of tape where cards come out cheaper. But this is apples and oranges.

Cards are *designed* to be used over and over. Tapes are not. Using each medium as designed is not apples and oranges. It's apples to apples. Using each medium as it was NOT designed to be used (single pass solid state, or multi-pass tape) is the apples to oranges.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Gold View Post
Not saying there aren't plenty of reasons to go tapeless, including quicker capture/transfer and fewer dropouts, but cost isn't one of them. Unless you can find 16GB SD cards for two bucks.
Where are you finding 1920x1080 tapes for $2? Since we're comparing apples to apples... In fact, where are you finding HDV tapes for $2? Or are you just talking about finding the absolute cheapest media that will fit in your camera?

Cost for 1 hr of SDHC (~40):
http://www.amazon.com/Transcend-Class-Flash-Memory-TS16GSDHC6/dp/B0015AOK1O/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1281634240&sr=8-2

Cost for 1hr of full raster tape (~140):
Sony BCT64SR HDCAM SR Videocassette, Large BCT64SR - B&H Photo


Cost for 1hr of decent quality HDV tape (~$8)
Sony DVM-63HD HDV Cassette (63 Minutes) DVM63HDR - B&H Photo


Assuming we allow the apples to oranges of full raster solid state SDHC to thin raster HDV tape, the SDHC is 5 times higher if each is used a single time. That's hardly what I'd call infinite, as you referred to it. More expensive certainly, but hardly outside of the realm of "normal" in the world of professional video. Frankly, I don't know anyone who uses their solid state cards less than 5 times, so that would seem to put the cost favor to solid state. If we do what I consider the apples to apples test of full raster solid state to full raster tape, the solid state option is 1/3 the price. Even if just used a single time. That is assuming we ignore the $80k worth of recording equipment. Because that would certainly pay for a LOT of hours of solid state.

Maybe THAT should be the apples to apples comparison.

Total costs out the door to record one hour of 1920 x 1080p onto:

1. Solid state as cheaply as possible
2. Tape as cheaply as possible.
__________________
DVX100, PMW-EX1, Canon 550D, FigRig, Dell Octocore, Avid MC4/5, MB Looks, RedCineX, Matrox MX02 mini, GTech RAID, Edirol R-4, Senn. G2 Evo, Countryman, Moles and Lowels.
Perrone Ford is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 12th, 2010, 12:59 PM   #26
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Woodinville, WA USA
Posts: 3,464
Sony Premiums at various online vendors are about $2 each, or 1/20th of the cost of the $40 SDHC card. I'm still in the HDV world so that's apples to apples for me.

Of course you can find horrendously expensive tapes. HDV tapes are a waste of money and I know you already know that. It's misleading to imply that they are the most economical "decent" quality.

Matt's point was that SD cards are more expensive than tapes of the same length. And he's right. For a kid like him, this can be a significant expense. You're in a different league than he is and your workflow and logic don't apply to him.

I'm not disagreeing with you on the re-use issue. But there still isn't a good, economical archiving option with cards. And I say this as a guy who no longer really uses tape at all. When I switched to MRCs and CF cards, I had to spend thousands on cards so I'd have plenty to see me through long multicam shoots. It took me years to spend thousands on tapes. Of course this will amortize out in the long run but it was and is a significant upfront expense.

And I still don't have an archive solution that is both as economical and reliable as tape.
__________________
"It can only be attributable to human error... This sort of thing has cropped up before, and it has always been due to human error."
Adam Gold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 12th, 2010, 01:20 PM   #27
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 4,100
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Gold View Post
Sony Premiums at various online vendors are about $2 each, or 1/20th of the cost of the $40 SDHC card. I'm still in the HDV world so that's apples to apples for me.
Ok, 1/20th. About the gap between my SDHC cards and the Sony SXS cards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Gold View Post
Of course you can find horrendously expensive tapes. HDV tapes are a waste of money and I know you already know that. It's misleading to imply that they are the most economical "decent" quality.
I don't know that HDV tapes are a waste of money. I've never shot HDV to tape in my life. And I am not in the habit of saying the manufacturers don't know what they're talking about. Maybe HDV tape and DV tape are exactly the same. Maybe they aren't.

When I said economical, decent quality, that came from surveying the HDV tape options on B&H which ranged from $7.29 to 19.99. I didn't peruse the DV tape options since we were talking about HD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Gold View Post
Matt's point was that SD cards are more expensive than tapes of the same length. And he's right. For a kid like him, this can be a significant expense. You're in a different league than he is and your workflow and logic don't apply to him.
SD cards have no length. That's another one of the beauties about solid state. I can put 4 hours of video onto $40 card, or I can barely fit 1 hour. Heck, I could put 20 hours on it if I wanted. I have the choice.

Media costs are ALWAYS a significant expense. For me, looking at the 50 miniDV tapes I have on my wall right now with no other purpose in life except to gather dust... that represents a significant expense. If those were cards I had bought, even at 5x the price, I'd have saved a ton of money. I tend to look at costs overall. Not just the upfront costs. That's false economy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Gold View Post
I'm not disagreeing with you on the re-use issue. But there still isn't a good, economical archiving option with cards. And I say this as a guy who no longer really uses tape at all. When I switched to MRCs and CF cards, I had to spend thousands on cards so I'd have plenty to see me through long multicam shoots. It took me years to spend thousands on tapes. Of course this will amortize out in the long run but it was and is a significant upfront expense.
I consider BluRay a good, economical archival solution. It's not perfect by any means, but it's as cheap as tape, if not cheaper.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Gold View Post
And I still don't have an archive solution that is both as economical and reliable as tape.
We may not have one for a very long time. So do we stop shooting? Or do we press ahead with what we have and do the best we can?
__________________
DVX100, PMW-EX1, Canon 550D, FigRig, Dell Octocore, Avid MC4/5, MB Looks, RedCineX, Matrox MX02 mini, GTech RAID, Edirol R-4, Senn. G2 Evo, Countryman, Moles and Lowels.
Perrone Ford is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 12th, 2010, 01:36 PM   #28
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Woodinville, WA USA
Posts: 3,464
We most assuredly do the latter.
__________________
"It can only be attributable to human error... This sort of thing has cropped up before, and it has always been due to human error."
Adam Gold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 11th, 2010, 05:11 PM   #29
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 73
As operations manager at a production house, I insisted no one go out to shoot without capturing to two media. A few years ago that might be to cards and hard drive (via Firestore DTEs) or tape and hard drive. It was simply too expensive or impossible to reshoot certain events. Being a pro means never having to say your sorry and we never had to explain to a client: "We goofed on the recording." We never lost a second of coverage due to a medium failure. That doesn't mean media failed. We saw losses on tape, cards, and hard drives. But we always had a backup which saved the day.

Today, I see a lot of folks recording to one piece of medium. I wince at that but it's your skin. While I record to hard drives, my tape becomes my backup and easy archive method: Label it, throw it in a box.

HDV is still better for most applications in which I'm again. I don't have to upgrade. And if someone needs the occasional 100mbps quality, I go to the NanoFlash. Tape will still backup the whole deal.

Finally, folks believe there is something inherently wrong or obsolete about tape. In fact, it's crutch is that it's far more expensive to make tape drives than card drives. Tapes could have been the medium for AVCHD capture. In fact, research had shown that miniDV is capable of bit rates as high as 60mpbs and beyond but it comes to down to price. Tape is going away not because of any quality or technical issue. It's going away because of its relative high price.

Dave Burckhard
Dave Burckhard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 3rd, 2011, 12:06 AM   #30
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 35
Re: RIP Magnetic Tape.

I'm a proud XL2 user, I do plan to get some solid state recording going on it too but that is ASWELL. I like tape, I won't be ditching it until I feel 100% secure to do so.
__________________
Panasonic GF2 | BlackMagic Pocket Cinema (waiting): Rode VideoMic |
Jace Ross is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > The Tools of DV and HD Production > The Long Black Line

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:21 PM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network