New to miniDV at DVinfo.net

Peter Racanelli · June 20th, 2007, 08:37 PM

I have a really basic question and thought it would make sense to post it here.

I know one of the pros of going to digital is that one no longer has to rewind or fast forward tapes to find scenes of interest or get back to where you left off for the next capture.

I just purchased a Canon HV20 and bought some of the miniDV media that are needed. When I started using it I was surprised to realize that it is just like using a tape with the need to rewind and fast forward. I guess I was imagining the ability to see thumbnails of scenes and skip around like that?
Is it possible I just haven't delved into this enough? Am I missing something?

Thanks,
Pete R.

Joe Busch · June 20th, 2007, 08:51 PM

Data has been stored on tapes for a long time, how it originally was stored on the first "computers"

It's reliable... tapes (if kept in a decent location) will last 20+ years easily.

Rewinding + FForwarding sucks though, only takes a couple minutes but puts more wear on the camera... I'm snagging a mini-dv rewinder soon... new camera on the way :)

Glenn Chan · June 20th, 2007, 08:54 PM

If you store a digital signal on tape, you still need to capture and/or fast forward/rewind.

If you store a digital signal on hard drive (hard drive camcorder, Firestore-like devices, Reddrive, etc.) or flash media then you get that non-linear access.

You can of course capture from tape onto a hard drive in your NLE.

Alan James · June 21st, 2007, 09:16 AM

There is one camera that I know of that does exactly what you are talking about and thats the HVX-200. It uses a flash memory card called P2 to store all of its data. On the screen you can select shots you want to look at, call them up and watch just that shot. Unfortunately I HEAR you can't store that much on an average size P2 card, just about 10 mins, then you need to transfer the data to a hard drive so its not practical for vacation type stuff, or run and gun shooting.

I have had a question for a long time about Mini DV that I haven't asked but this seems like a good time and place.

On a Mini DV tape there is nearly 12 gigs of storage that can be utilized however it needs to be. I have heard of programs that can use a camera hooked up to a computer to directly write data to tape. Not video, just straight up data. Now my question is, why cant a Mini DV camera "overcrank" the tape and record only 10 mins of video but have that video be uncompressed. I wouldn't mind if it took up the entire tape as long as I could get an uncompressed signal. It seems like its possible to do and would be a cheap storage device. Basically this is how DVCAM works. The only issue is that the increases speed would maybe cause the recording material to flake, but I'm sure that can be overcome. What do you guys think?

Benjamin Hill · June 22nd, 2007, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan James

Unfortunately I HEAR you can't store that much on an average size P2 card, just about 10 mins, then you need to transfer the data to a hard drive so its not practical for vacation type stuff, or run and gun shooting.

To clarify: the smallest P2 card made now is 8GB and since the HVX200 has 2 card slots, with 2 8GB cards you can shoot almost 70 minutes of DV and enjoy all the benefits of solid state recording. With the new 16GB cards, those capacities double.

Since P2 is a very rugged recording medium with no moving parts it is actually well-suited for many run-n-gun situations.

Glenn Chan · June 22nd, 2007, 12:23 PM

Quote:

On a Mini DV tape there is nearly 12 gigs of storage that can be utilized however it needs to be. I have heard of programs that can use a camera hooked up to a computer to directly write data to tape. Not video, just straight up data. Now my question is, why cant a Mini DV camera "overcrank" the tape and record only 10 mins of video but have that video be uncompressed. I wouldn't mind if it took up the entire tape as long as I could get an uncompressed signal. It seems like its possible to do and would be a cheap storage device. Basically this is how DVCAM works. The only issue is that the increases speed would maybe cause the recording material to flake, but I'm sure that can be overcome. What do you guys think?

DVCPRO HD runs the tape at 4X speed. Though it's DVCPRO tape, which always comes in the M or L size cassette and uses metal particle tape instead of metal evaporated.

But the DVCPRO25 (not the HD format) is so close to the DV format that DVCPRO tapes will play back into Sony's high-end DVCAM decks.

Alan James · June 23rd, 2007, 01:07 AM

So the cost of the deck is really what prohibits the creation of a uncompressed signal to be stored on minidv.

I don't know much about the HVX-200 but last I heard it would only record 10 mins to an 8 gig card but I guess that is incorrect.

I really wanna start shooting 4:4:4 2k. I guess I'll have to wait for the HVX-200 Hydra to be created.

Glenn Chan · June 23rd, 2007, 02:27 AM

Or just get the Red? It will likely end up with better resolution (luminance and color) and lower noise than the Hydra, recording Redcode RAW on the Red and RAW on the hydra.

Alan James · June 23rd, 2007, 09:36 PM

I'll have to compare the costs. I dont have 20,000$ for the red and a new computer to edit and capture to, but if the hydra is under 10,000$ then it might be in my price range. Most of my money goes to college right now where I sit around and learn nothing. My XL2 will do me for now though I guess. Thanx.

Benjamin Hill · June 24th, 2007, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan James

I'll have to compare the costs. I dont have 20,000$ for the red and a new computer to edit and capture to, but if the hydra is under 10,000$ then it might be in my price range. Most of my money goes to college right now where I sit around and learn nothing. My XL2 will do me for now though I guess. Thanx.

You could always quit school and put your money into an expensive camera.

Alan James · June 24th, 2007, 09:09 PM

Very true. I have considered that many times, but I still havnt made my mind up on that subject.

June 20th, 2007, 08:37 PM	#1
Peter Racanelli New Boot Join Date: May 2007 Location: Malverne, NY Posts: 10	New to miniDV I have a really basic question and thought it would make sense to post it here. I know one of the pros of going to digital is that one no longer has to rewind or fast forward tapes to find scenes of interest or get back to where you left off for the next capture. I just purchased a Canon HV20 and bought some of the miniDV media that are needed. When I started using it I was surprised to realize that it is just like using a tape with the need to rewind and fast forward. I guess I was imagining the ability to see thumbnails of scenes and skip around like that? Is it possible I just haven't delved into this enough? Am I missing something? Thanks, Pete R.

June 20th, 2007, 08:51 PM	#2
Joe Busch Major Player Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Sammamish, WA Posts: 398	Data has been stored on tapes for a long time, how it originally was stored on the first "computers" It's reliable... tapes (if kept in a decent location) will last 20+ years easily. Rewinding + FForwarding sucks though, only takes a couple minutes but puts more wear on the camera... I'm snagging a mini-dv rewinder soon... new camera on the way :)

June 20th, 2007, 08:54 PM	#3
Glenn Chan Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 4,750	If you store a digital signal on tape, you still need to capture and/or fast forward/rewind. If you store a digital signal on hard drive (hard drive camcorder, Firestore-like devices, Reddrive, etc.) or flash media then you get that non-linear access. You can of course capture from tape onto a hard drive in your NLE.

June 21st, 2007, 09:16 AM	#4
Alan James Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tampa, Florida Posts: 261	There is one camera that I know of that does exactly what you are talking about and thats the HVX-200. It uses a flash memory card called P2 to store all of its data. On the screen you can select shots you want to look at, call them up and watch just that shot. Unfortunately I HEAR you can't store that much on an average size P2 card, just about 10 mins, then you need to transfer the data to a hard drive so its not practical for vacation type stuff, or run and gun shooting. I have had a question for a long time about Mini DV that I haven't asked but this seems like a good time and place. On a Mini DV tape there is nearly 12 gigs of storage that can be utilized however it needs to be. I have heard of programs that can use a camera hooked up to a computer to directly write data to tape. Not video, just straight up data. Now my question is, why cant a Mini DV camera "overcrank" the tape and record only 10 mins of video but have that video be uncompressed. I wouldn't mind if it took up the entire tape as long as I could get an uncompressed signal. It seems like its possible to do and would be a cheap storage device. Basically this is how DVCAM works. The only issue is that the increases speed would maybe cause the recording material to flake, but I'm sure that can be overcome. What do you guys think?

June 23rd, 2007, 01:07 AM	#7
Alan James Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tampa, Florida Posts: 261	So the cost of the deck is really what prohibits the creation of a uncompressed signal to be stored on minidv. I don't know much about the HVX-200 but last I heard it would only record 10 mins to an 8 gig card but I guess that is incorrect. I really wanna start shooting 4:4:4 2k. I guess I'll have to wait for the HVX-200 Hydra to be created.

June 23rd, 2007, 02:27 AM	#8
Glenn Chan Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 4,750	Or just get the Red? It will likely end up with better resolution (luminance and color) and lower noise than the Hydra, recording Redcode RAW on the Red and RAW on the hydra.

June 23rd, 2007, 09:36 PM	#9
Alan James Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tampa, Florida Posts: 261	I'll have to compare the costs. I dont have 20,000$ for the red and a new computer to edit and capture to, but if the hydra is under 10,000$ then it might be in my price range. Most of my money goes to college right now where I sit around and learn nothing. My XL2 will do me for now though I guess. Thanx.

June 24th, 2007, 09:09 PM	#11
Alan James Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tampa, Florida Posts: 261	Very true. I have considered that many times, but I still havnt made my mind up on that subject.