Editing footage from Sanyo HD1 at DVinfo.net

Graham Jones · February 28th, 2006, 10:15 AM

We've been discussing this issue on the 'footage' thread but that thread is getting very long.

Apparently MP4CAM2AVI has been great for converting earlier Xacti models' MP4 to AVI - in fact those models are even mentionned on MP4CAM2AVI's site - but it seems the programme is thrown by the new model's footage.

I've e-mailed MP4CAM2AVI about this and their reply is "Thanks, i'm planning to make an update with this camera support."

Meanwhile, it has emerged that running the MP4 files through MP4Box can prep them for MP4CAM2AVI - though this hasn't worked for me yet. Think I'm just doing it wrong.

Anyway, clearly we can get AVIs from the MP4s - but I just wanted to start a thread with a view to discovering good general edit workflows including what NLEs.

Obviously, the ideal would be to drag our MP4s straight into an NLE. I've heard that MP4 might cause NLEs to run slow, though.

Just looking for opinions, ideas and - as the cam becomes more available - experiences.

Until we actually have one in our hand we can simply test with Joseph's samples from the 'footage' thread.

It's a sweet little camera and we need a sweet little post-production route!

Graham

Marc Louis · February 28th, 2006, 02:13 PM

good thing your email to Sourceforge !!

as i said in the other post the converting mp4 files through the steven-learnt process works

1) demux the mp4 file with MP4BOX, you gotta download yamb with installer here (http://yamb.unite-video.com/download.html)

2) import into yamb , click demux, then you get another MP4 file

3)put the file into MPACAM2AVI

4) that's it

result converted .avi file :http://s28.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0...91GEFDQAQ854Q7

original .mp4 file : http://s28.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0...21O907FTY7RRQV

there might have a less time consuming process but as for now, and thanx to Steven Mingam that is the best one we know without much loss of quality

Peter Solmssen · February 28th, 2006, 02:15 PM

I've had no problem editing MP4 footage in Vegas 6.0; it has all been clips generously posted by members -- I have not yet received my HD1 from Amazon. I have chosed HDV 1280 x 720 as the template from the properties menu.

The issue for me has been what to render it as. Vegas does not offer MP4. I have tried WMV9, which works but seems to take a long time to render. I have also used NTSC Widescreen stream for burning to DVD so that I can view the footage on my HDTV, but there is naturally a loss of resolution in going to 720 x 480.

I have assumed that rendering to HDV requires burning to tape, and I don't have an HDV camcorder or deck.

Marc Louis · February 28th, 2006, 02:19 PM

interesting, i didn't know vegas would deal with mp4 files
and can u render your final video project into .avi with Vegas ???

Graham Jones · February 28th, 2006, 02:21 PM

That's good news about Vegas Peter. Some questions:

1. Rendering WMV9, you didn't say much about quality, any loss?

2. When you render to NTSC Widescreen and DVD, is the resolution loss visible on your computer - like it is on your HDTV?

3. When you work with the HD1's MP4 files in Vegas, please just clarify that you are working with the files straight from Joseph, without re-structuring them or anything.

4. Is Vegas slow when you work with the HD1's files?

5. Can you output the MP4 as PAL from Vegas? If so, how does it handle frame rate change from 30 to 25?

Thanks!

Graham

Peter Solmssen · February 28th, 2006, 04:29 PM

Let me begin with a comment. I was a photographer for LIFE magazine in the "good old days", and the discussions we had then about whether 35mm was "good enough" sounded much like what we're reading in these threads. I think the answer is much the same -- yes, if you're careful (e.g., fill the frame), and for many but not all purposes.

Your questions: WMV9 looks the same as the original MP4 on the computer; I don't have a way to show it on the HDTV yet (interested in the Kiss600 and other players not yet available).

MP4 rendered to Mpeg2 for DVD has less resolution and shows it on the computer and on the HDTV. I ran some of Joseph's clips (thank you, Joseph) in a loop of each on the computer and the difference is clear.

I have not altered any of the files I have worked with. Vegas is slow rendering WMV9, but my PC is only 1.7 Ghz.
The segments I have worked with are understandably short, so it is a little hard to tell about timing ( for example, it takes longer to burn the lead out on a DVD than to burn the tracks themselves).

Vegas offers PAL outputs, but I have no way or reason to try them. It is a very popular program and must be used in Europe. It will render to .avi.

Another comment: We are all looking for something different here. I am getting lazy in old age and want a very portable camera that will take video and stills that look better than what I am getting with a Sony PC1000 (which is not bad) and as good as a Panasonic FZ20. My test is how they look on a 60 inch Sony HDTV (that has a card reader built in for stills). For now, I am not willing to put up with the hassle of HDV (which also has lousy stills), so I eagerly await my Sanyo HD1 that, in Steve Sanders' words, is "a blast to use". There is a reason that he jumped his long queue of cameras to test: he likes it!

I don't have a summer house or boat or plane, so if Samsung or Panasonic or anyone else makes a better one, I will buy that too.

Cheers, Peter

Gary Gowman · February 28th, 2006, 04:35 PM

I have also been using Vegas 6 as mentioned above. Just set the project up using the 720 30p preset and drop it on the timleine from the Vegas Explorer window.I have my Sony 20" LCD monitor at native 1280 x 1080 resolution which can play the footage at full size 1280 x 720, but not real time. A RAM preview will allow some realtime playback when desired for sections depending on how much RAM you have. I set the Vegas Video Preview window to Preview Auto and size it to half size and it gives about 8 FPS playback with MP4. I then used the built in Cineform codec and resaved the MP4s to AVIs and it it then plays the AVIs in real time at 29.97 and still looks great because of the Cineform wavelet codec.

I also made a widescreen DVD and it looked okay, but not like the computer LCD becuase I only have a stnadard TV at 4:3 NTSC. I tried the HDV PAL preset on a render using the same Cineform codec and it worked okay. I do not have a PAL set to watch it on. It obviuosly has to drop and blend some frames to get down to 25p. I did replay the PAL cineform clip on a Vegas 720 25p timeline and looked good and played real time with the setup I mentioned above.

The renders go real fast using the Cineform. I used all the files that have been posted here for download (mostly Joseph:s)

Gary
Sony VAIO 3G Pentium 4 with 1Gig of RAM. Extra Internal IDE 7200 hard drive.

Joseph Aurili · February 28th, 2006, 04:35 PM

>1. Rendering WMV9, you didn't say much about quality, any loss?
>2. When you render to NTSC Widescreen and DVD, is the resolution loss >visible on your computer - like it is on your HDTV?
You can render wide screen one of two ways. If you letterbox the video, you will lose some resolution. It you leave the video full size, but let the video be streched out by the DVD player, you keep full resolution. The computer will use the same resolutions as a DVD player.
>3. When you work with the HD1's MP4 files in Vegas, please just clarify >that you are working with the files straight from Joseph, without re->structuring them or anything.
Yes they will drop right in, if you have a current version of Quicktime on the machine.
>4. Is Vegas slow when you work with the HD1's files?
It was slow to preview playback of the files on my P4 2.5, but fast to render. Playback of the MP4 videos in Quicktime was also slow on that machine. My Pentium M 2.19 was much better. Might have to do with the video card also.
>5. Can you output the MP4 as PAL from Vegas? If so, how does it handle >frame rate change from 30 to 25?
Yes, but I have not done it.

Gary Gowman · February 28th, 2006, 04:48 PM

Most of the footage I have seen looks pretty good, but I have some big concerns about the camera moving. Such as pans and zooms, even on a tripod. It doesn't look too good from what I have seen so far. With the camera static, motion in the scene looks good, like the train shot posted.

Gary

Gary Gowman · February 28th, 2006, 04:52 PM

I suggest using Vegas with the Cineform codec to edit in real time with half size preview window. You can always treat it as a proxy edit and replace the footage with the original MP4s at the end for rendering if you think the Cineform is not as good (hard to tell the difference though). Or use an app like Gear Shift from VASST that will do the same with making poxies.

Gary

Graham Jones · February 28th, 2006, 04:57 PM

Thanks for answering those questions everyone!

"It is a very popular program and must be used in Europe."

I suppose that would often be 25fps footage to begin with though.

I was wondering about how Vegas handles a 30fps source outputted at 25fps - I know Sonic DVDit 6 and TMPGENC Xpress 3.0 both deliver a stuttering picture when you output Joseph's clips as PAL.

Anyway, I'll try it myself.

Gary Gowman · February 28th, 2006, 05:00 PM

I could FTP a PAL clip from Vegas if you like. Joseph, can you shoot and post some clips that are less exposed? Almost all of the clips I have seen have too much blow out on the whites. All the skies appear white instead of gray or blue. And possibly some nice pan shots at different speeds from a fluid head tripod.

Gary

Graham Jones · February 28th, 2006, 05:15 PM

"I could FTP a PAL clip from Vegas if you like."

Gary that would be great, because if I discover in advance that there is something drastic like stuttering occuring, I may shift my focus onto other possible NLEs. So you'd be saving me a lot of time.

Gary Gowman · February 28th, 2006, 05:20 PM

Where to send it? I have one MP4 clip from Joseph (bushes near a building and parking lot with the bushes blowing in the wind) clip using Cineform codec that ended up as 85mb and the same clips as an uncompressed AVI that ended up as 820 mb, both using Vegas rendered as 720p25PAL

Gary
I also have the Train shot with similar file sizes in PAL25
Remember, Vegas's Video Preview window needs to be 640 x 360 set to Preview (Auto) for real time playback.

Graham Jones · February 28th, 2006, 05:31 PM

Thanks - I am e-mailing you.

February 28th, 2006, 10:15 AM	#1
Graham Jones Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 489	Editing footage from Sanyo HD1 We've been discussing this issue on the 'footage' thread but that thread is getting very long. Apparently MP4CAM2AVI has been great for converting earlier Xacti models' MP4 to AVI - in fact those models are even mentionned on MP4CAM2AVI's site - but it seems the programme is thrown by the new model's footage. I've e-mailed MP4CAM2AVI about this and their reply is "Thanks, i'm planning to make an update with this camera support." Meanwhile, it has emerged that running the MP4 files through MP4Box can prep them for MP4CAM2AVI - though this hasn't worked for me yet. Think I'm just doing it wrong. Anyway, clearly we can get AVIs from the MP4s - but I just wanted to start a thread with a view to discovering good general edit workflows including what NLEs. Obviously, the ideal would be to drag our MP4s straight into an NLE. I've heard that MP4 might cause NLEs to run slow, though. Just looking for opinions, ideas and - as the cam becomes more available - experiences. Until we actually have one in our hand we can simply test with Joseph's samples from the 'footage' thread. It's a sweet little camera and we need a sweet little post-production route! Graham __________________ www.irishfilmmaker.com

February 28th, 2006, 02:21 PM	#5
Graham Jones Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 489	That's good news about Vegas Peter. Some questions: 1. Rendering WMV9, you didn't say much about quality, any loss? 2. When you render to NTSC Widescreen and DVD, is the resolution loss visible on your computer - like it is on your HDTV? 3. When you work with the HD1's MP4 files in Vegas, please just clarify that you are working with the files straight from Joseph, without re-structuring them or anything. 4. Is Vegas slow when you work with the HD1's files? 5. Can you output the MP4 as PAL from Vegas? If so, how does it handle frame rate change from 30 to 25? Thanks! Graham __________________ www.irishfilmmaker.com

February 28th, 2006, 04:57 PM	#11
Graham Jones Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 489	Thanks for answering those questions everyone! "It is a very popular program and must be used in Europe." I suppose that would often be 25fps footage to begin with though. I was wondering about how Vegas handles a 30fps source outputted at 25fps - I know Sonic DVDit 6 and TMPGENC Xpress 3.0 both deliver a stuttering picture when you output Joseph's clips as PAL. Anyway, I'll try it myself. __________________ www.irishfilmmaker.com

February 28th, 2006, 05:15 PM	#13
Graham Jones Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 489	"I could FTP a PAL clip from Vegas if you like." Gary that would be great, because if I discover in advance that there is something drastic like stuttering occuring, I may shift my focus onto other possible NLEs. So you'd be saving me a lot of time. __________________ www.irishfilmmaker.com

February 28th, 2006, 05:31 PM	#15
Graham Jones Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 489	Thanks - I am e-mailing you. __________________ www.irishfilmmaker.com

February 28th, 2006, 02:13 PM	#2
Marc Louis Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: san francisco, ca Posts: 68	good thing your email to Sourceforge !! as i said in the other post the converting mp4 files through the steven-learnt process works 1) demux the mp4 file with MP4BOX, you gotta download yamb with installer here (http://yamb.unite-video.com/download.html) 2) import into yamb , click demux, then you get another MP4 file 3)put the file into MPACAM2AVI 4) that's it result converted .avi file :http://s28.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0...91GEFDQAQ854Q7 original .mp4 file : http://s28.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0...21O907FTY7RRQV there might have a less time consuming process but as for now, and thanx to Steven Mingam that is the best one we know without much loss of quality

February 28th, 2006, 02:15 PM	#3
Peter Solmssen Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Palo Alto, CA Posts: 133	I've had no problem editing MP4 footage in Vegas 6.0; it has all been clips generously posted by members -- I have not yet received my HD1 from Amazon. I have chosed HDV 1280 x 720 as the template from the properties menu. The issue for me has been what to render it as. Vegas does not offer MP4. I have tried WMV9, which works but seems to take a long time to render. I have also used NTSC Widescreen stream for burning to DVD so that I can view the footage on my HDTV, but there is naturally a loss of resolution in going to 720 x 480. I have assumed that rendering to HDV requires burning to tape, and I don't have an HDV camcorder or deck.

February 28th, 2006, 02:19 PM	#4
Marc Louis Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: san francisco, ca Posts: 68	interesting, i didn't know vegas would deal with mp4 files and can u render your final video project into .avi with Vegas ???

February 28th, 2006, 04:29 PM	#6
Peter Solmssen Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Palo Alto, CA Posts: 133	Let me begin with a comment. I was a photographer for LIFE magazine in the "good old days", and the discussions we had then about whether 35mm was "good enough" sounded much like what we're reading in these threads. I think the answer is much the same -- yes, if you're careful (e.g., fill the frame), and for many but not all purposes. Your questions: WMV9 looks the same as the original MP4 on the computer; I don't have a way to show it on the HDTV yet (interested in the Kiss600 and other players not yet available). MP4 rendered to Mpeg2 for DVD has less resolution and shows it on the computer and on the HDTV. I ran some of Joseph's clips (thank you, Joseph) in a loop of each on the computer and the difference is clear. I have not altered any of the files I have worked with. Vegas is slow rendering WMV9, but my PC is only 1.7 Ghz. The segments I have worked with are understandably short, so it is a little hard to tell about timing ( for example, it takes longer to burn the lead out on a DVD than to burn the tracks themselves). Vegas offers PAL outputs, but I have no way or reason to try them. It is a very popular program and must be used in Europe. It will render to .avi. Another comment: We are all looking for something different here. I am getting lazy in old age and want a very portable camera that will take video and stills that look better than what I am getting with a Sony PC1000 (which is not bad) and as good as a Panasonic FZ20. My test is how they look on a 60 inch Sony HDTV (that has a card reader built in for stills). For now, I am not willing to put up with the hassle of HDV (which also has lousy stills), so I eagerly await my Sanyo HD1 that, in Steve Sanders' words, is "a blast to use". There is a reason that he jumped his long queue of cameras to test: he likes it! I don't have a summer house or boat or plane, so if Samsung or Panasonic or anyone else makes a better one, I will buy that too. Cheers, Peter

February 28th, 2006, 04:35 PM	#7
Gary Gowman Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 47	I have also been using Vegas 6 as mentioned above. Just set the project up using the 720 30p preset and drop it on the timleine from the Vegas Explorer window.I have my Sony 20" LCD monitor at native 1280 x 1080 resolution which can play the footage at full size 1280 x 720, but not real time. A RAM preview will allow some realtime playback when desired for sections depending on how much RAM you have. I set the Vegas Video Preview window to Preview Auto and size it to half size and it gives about 8 FPS playback with MP4. I then used the built in Cineform codec and resaved the MP4s to AVIs and it it then plays the AVIs in real time at 29.97 and still looks great because of the Cineform wavelet codec. I also made a widescreen DVD and it looked okay, but not like the computer LCD becuase I only have a stnadard TV at 4:3 NTSC. I tried the HDV PAL preset on a render using the same Cineform codec and it worked okay. I do not have a PAL set to watch it on. It obviuosly has to drop and blend some frames to get down to 25p. I did replay the PAL cineform clip on a Vegas 720 25p timeline and looked good and played real time with the setup I mentioned above. The renders go real fast using the Cineform. I used all the files that have been posted here for download (mostly Joseph:s) Gary Sony VAIO 3G Pentium 4 with 1Gig of RAM. Extra Internal IDE 7200 hard drive.

February 28th, 2006, 04:35 PM	#8
Joseph Aurili Major Player Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 326	>1. Rendering WMV9, you didn't say much about quality, any loss? >2. When you render to NTSC Widescreen and DVD, is the resolution loss >visible on your computer - like it is on your HDTV? You can render wide screen one of two ways. If you letterbox the video, you will lose some resolution. It you leave the video full size, but let the video be streched out by the DVD player, you keep full resolution. The computer will use the same resolutions as a DVD player. >3. When you work with the HD1's MP4 files in Vegas, please just clarify >that you are working with the files straight from Joseph, without re->structuring them or anything. Yes they will drop right in, if you have a current version of Quicktime on the machine. >4. Is Vegas slow when you work with the HD1's files? It was slow to preview playback of the files on my P4 2.5, but fast to render. Playback of the MP4 videos in Quicktime was also slow on that machine. My Pentium M 2.19 was much better. Might have to do with the video card also. >5. Can you output the MP4 as PAL from Vegas? If so, how does it handle >frame rate change from 30 to 25? Yes, but I have not done it.

February 28th, 2006, 04:48 PM	#9
Gary Gowman Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 47	Most of the footage I have seen looks pretty good, but I have some big concerns about the camera moving. Such as pans and zooms, even on a tripod. It doesn't look too good from what I have seen so far. With the camera static, motion in the scene looks good, like the train shot posted. Gary

February 28th, 2006, 04:52 PM	#10
Gary Gowman Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 47	I suggest using Vegas with the Cineform codec to edit in real time with half size preview window. You can always treat it as a proxy edit and replace the footage with the original MP4s at the end for rendering if you think the Cineform is not as good (hard to tell the difference though). Or use an app like Gear Shift from VASST that will do the same with making poxies. Gary

February 28th, 2006, 05:00 PM	#12
Gary Gowman Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 47	I could FTP a PAL clip from Vegas if you like. Joseph, can you shoot and post some clips that are less exposed? Almost all of the clips I have seen have too much blow out on the whites. All the skies appear white instead of gray or blue. And possibly some nice pan shots at different speeds from a fluid head tripod. Gary

February 28th, 2006, 05:20 PM	#14
Gary Gowman Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 47	Where to send it? I have one MP4 clip from Joseph (bushes near a building and parking lot with the bushes blowing in the wind) clip using Cineform codec that ended up as 85mb and the same clips as an uncompressed AVI that ended up as 820 mb, both using Vegas rendered as 720p25PAL Gary I also have the Train shot with similar file sizes in PAL25 Remember, Vegas's Video Preview window needs to be 640 x 360 set to Preview (Auto) for real time playback.

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